Draft: First Across the Walls...

[Reader]

Draft so feedback very welcome.

First across the walls at X

Baseline TN is for a small castle. Tower = -2. Hall = -1. Castle = +1. Superior Castle = +2. These may vary for particularly well/ill defended fortifications, or those with a particularly dread reputation.

Test
Warfare (strategy/tactics) TN 9
Critical Failure = two extra rounds of archery gauntlet
Failure = an extra round of archery gauntlet
Success = default rounds of archery gauntlet
2 DoS = Archery gauntlet does not receive coordinate test benefits, as you strike at a weak point on the walls or coordinate a diversionary assault elsewhere.
3 DoS = Face only one set of shots in the archery gauntlet.
4 DoS = choice of reduce the number of opposing guards by one or avoid the Death from Above challenge.

Will (Courage) TN 9
- Critical Failure = 2 fatigue, two additional guards on the walls as the defenders have time to reinforce.
- Failure = 1 fatigue, one additional guard on the walls as the defenders have time to reinforce.
- Success = Avoid fatigue
- Additional DoS = 1B in subsequent combat per Additional DoS (so 2 DoS = 1B in subsequent combat)

Archery gauntlet
- Default is two volleys of 5d6k4+4 as the archers assist one another.
- Base Damage of 4 (piercing 1) or 5 (piercing 2)
- Coordinate on marksmanship test provided by a sergeant rolling 4k3 Will (Coordinate).

Death from above
Opposed agility (dodge) test against Marksmanship 3 with +2 assist bonuses and attack by boiling oil, boiling water, rocks or even wildfire (damage set by p212 of GOT Edition of core rules, rock damage is 7 per DoS, AR applies).

Atop the walls
Default - Begin engaged against a knight of quality with Athletics 4 and a Tower Shield, longsword/battleaxe/mace and full plate.
Guardsmen (default of two) - Halberd. longsword/mace/axe. Ringmail/breastplate/chaimail. Dagger. Athletics 3, Awareness 3, Endurance 3, Fighting 4. Polerarms 2B. Appropriate sidearm skill at 1B.
Some scenarios may adjust the opponent numbers or their stats.

Consequences
+2 Glory - plus game narrative recognition of your heroism and significant IC rewards if the castle is taken.
Contribution to VP for martial benefits

[Aerion Storm]

I don't quite have the system mastery to offer more abstract and thoughtful comments, but right now mostly I'm thinking "Yup, that'd kill me, all right."

[Theomore Tullison]

I don't think guardsmen gets expensive longswords.

Also, anyone having marksmanship 4+ isn't going to assist the man standing next to him, he'll be shooting at something. In any case, I would simulate archery gauntlet as attacks from random members of an archery unit (but not full unit shooting at you). So I'd use straight up no specialties and marksmanship/damage dependent on deployed archer units on the wall (or green archers if there isn't any). But might get bonuses from higher ground, though.

May apply bonuses for ladder/grapnels/etc or penalties for lack of it. Possibly require Athletics(climb), especially if there isn't any ladders or such.

Death from above is rather nasty.

Rewards for victory should depend on general significance and difficulty of battle.

[Kevan Lyras]

Looks very tough but I like it :-)
I'd suggest thst the warfare roll can be done by somebody else (e.g. the commander sends them at a particular section of the wall etc)

[Darron Greyjoy]

I don't quite have the system mastery to offer more abstract and thoughtful comments, but right now mostly I'm thinking "Yup, that'd kill me, all right."

It ain't easy taking castles that's for sure. Im seeing everything being mostly fine until the archery gauntlet. Like your probably gonna be taking injury's or fatigue, probably not being hit by the death from above then is it fighting a guardsman and KoQ? If its both mixed in with the previous not including possibly having to go three rounds of the gauntlet and fatigue on top of and extra guy its not gonna be pretty.

[Ser Walton Dulver]

KoQ is secondary or tertiary character?

Would suggest Warfare roll to be made by one of commanders.

Archer gauntlets seems pretty nasty, but that's probably what? 1-1.5DoS going through armor per strike?

And that's the place where I'd suggest to get bonus dice penalties for using shields, instead test dices. I mean at least tower shield taking 1D+1B away instead 2D or something...

See You on the walls I guess :-)

P.S. 'on the walls-begin'- I guess more waves are awaiting us :-)

[Kevan Lyras]

So lets see:

Archers: 2DoS  vs AR10: 2 Damage, if we take the higher base damage
So the 2 archer volleys only make 4 damage in total

Death from above: avg of 12.5 vs opposed check that is hardly gonna be more than 2DoS.
However wildfire works in damage per round independent of DoS. (2d6 per round ignoring AR). So if it is a one time damage it is an average of 7

So if we assume that the first two tests are sucessful at 1DoS. We are looking at a fight vs 1KoQ + 1 guard at -11 health.

That seems tough but not completely unreasonable. Plus, I'd imagine the test results to be more skewed towards the PCs as only suitable PCs would try this...

If at all one should probably increase the difficulty a bit to ensure that only one or two PCs would actually try this per battle

[Reader]

Default is meant to be two guardsmen, will tweak original post but please bear in mind when commenting on difficulty. On phone, but appreciate thorough answers and posts so far, proper reply later.

[Ser Walton Dulver]

And what about fatigue for failed Will roll in case that someone starts with max fatigue already?

[Kevan Lyras]

If you are crazy enough to do this exhausted you should get an injury instead of a fatigue point;-)

[Theomore Tullison]

The wildfire bit is the real bummer....unless you somehow can be defeated by running out of health, multiple times, and survive. That's burn DP or marked as per ugly drawback like the hound, or you die. Most castles are not very likely to have wildfire to throw at attackers, though. Wouldn't be too sure about the Wyl's considering what happened at the green door inn.

Else, most PC's can take a wound and call it a day.

That marksmanship roll at death from above is probably a prime candidate to throw a DP on, in a pinch. Arguably should let one use anointed against it IMO. There's an issue with agility getting penalties from armor, which makes it even scarier.

In general, I am not too sure about having a multitude of opposed rolls in an event-style mechanic, though this one probably won't have more PC's attempting it than being manageable.

My own thoughts on event design would be something like this, all tests TN 12 before other modifiers:

Will (Courage)
Warfare (Tactics)
Awareness (Notice)

First three gives you bonuses per DoS to subsequent tests, making the next four more difficult upon critical failure.

Agility (Dodge) Take damage before AR, reduce by 5 per DoS, take even more on crit-fail.
Endurance (Resilience): Take 2 injuries, reduce by 1 per DoS, remove [Endurance] damage or an injury leftover from agility test per DoS above 2.
Athletics (Climb) Must succeed to proceed to final step, additional DoS gives +1 to fighting test, crit fail=wound. May take fatigue to attempt again.
Fighting (Weapon of choice), reduce number of tertiary foes to face in final combat equal to DoS, crit fail, thrown down=wound, badasses may go back to Athletics and get a retry for fatigue.

[Reader]

If you are crazy enough to do this exhausted you should get an injury instead of a fatigue point;-)

Agreed.

[Ser Walton Dulver]

If you are crazy enough to do this exhausted you should get an injury instead of a fatigue point;-)

Agreed.

Yeah, but who would like to spend on bench probably the most interesting event for his type of character since joining...

[Kevan Lyras]

I agree with Theo that the death from above mechanics needs a bit more elaboration especially with regards to wildfire.

I prefer the design of reader to your idea Theo. Rather than a couple of rolls giving general bonuses as in your case, every roll has its own distinct impact on the battle and a success in one cannot undo a failure in another.

[Loreia]

If the enemy is allowed to Coordinate, then we should be too.

With the difficulty variables given, I assume we'll have multiple castle walls to scale, yes? This allows some of us to hang back and wait our turn, opting to assist instead. So you'll only have cause to worry if you roll terribly. That is a relief to know.

Warfare: is it intended to gain more benefits on success when getting more than one degree of success? Or do we simply earn the effect of the DoS we achieve? Or choose?

level of difficulty:

[Baelon Drakeson]

"spit balling" here.... somewhat disorganized thoughts.... and lots of them, I kind of got on a roll.

1. I like the multiple steps - it's a little complicated but that's not always a bad thing. It's thematic and also allows for easy customization based on the castle being taken. Clever strategy eliminated all the enemy archers? No (or weak) archery gauntlet, etc.

2. High risk, deserves high reward. High rewards need high risk. For those rewards, the risk feels right. As someone else said, rewards should be adjusted to the difficulty of the castle. Perhaps given the example of Ser Jorah Mormont and his improbable tourney success, difficult castles could give a pool of 'faux xp' to be spent in a subsequent event (so at the start of the tourney he could declare that he is using his 50 'faux xp' to give him +1 AH and + 2B Ride for the duration of the joust) perhaps a stack of 'Faux DP' instead - with restricted use, of course. Or maybe just a floating +1 to a stat of choice for the duration of a single event.

3. I disagree with the idea of having someone else making the warfare challenge. In the thick of battle, knowing where to climb on your own is crucial. Running to your commander to ask where to climb would be rather laughed at, I think, and might even look like you are fleeing the battle. It's not like you can radio back to base - communication is limited. Also helps out those of us that have diverse skills rather than make this all about dedicated melee characters.

4... Some clarification needed on the bonus dice for the Will(Courage) test: are they spent on a single roll, or is it a bonus for the duration of the combat? Do the specifically apply to fighting tests, or can they be used on any test?

5. A *lot* of damage being dished out - perhaps too much.
Assuming CD 10 and Plate, and 1 DoS successes on the various tests

• Archers on average get 3 DoS for 12-9 = 3 or 15-8= 7 damage each.
  
• Death From Above (assuming 3 Agility and no Dodge, and ignoring that there will probably be injury/fatigue penalties) on average is 2 DoS, with 1 DoS almost guaranteed (over 90%) and low odds (about 21%) of 3 - danger strictly dependent on what is being dropped on you.
  
  
  
  • Rocks don't do much, if any, damage (assuming from catapult ammo that rocks do the same as oil, but subtract AR).
    
  • Boiling Water is probably going to be at least another injury, possibly a wound - 5 damage per DoS, ignoring AR.
    
  • Boiling Oil... ow. 20 damage on average, ignoring AR - have a wound, and a trickle of extra damage that, after the archery, could easily add another injury or two.
    
  • Wildfire - nice knowing you. I see burnt DP (for a miss) or burnt characters. 14 damage a round, ignoring AR, for 2d6 rounds? Yeah, no. On the upside, there's about a 6% chance they will accidentally ignite themselves instead of you.
    
  
  On the other hand, if you can take a fatigue to ignore AP you're in much better shape - about a 21% chance of being missed altogether, and only about a 36% chance of  DoS. Still hurts, but not so utterly deadly. Oil and Wildfire don't change much in danger though - their damage and after-effects are bad enough that a second DoS simply moves it from "omg no" to "omg hell no".
  
• The fight at the top. On it's own, dangerous due to being outnumbered, but not terrible. Going in loaded down with fatigue, injuries and maybe even wounds? That's a rough fight at best. Also, I don't think we've seen tower shields in-game before. I might need to upgrade... Also, with high defense and hindered attack rolls, this could easily devolve into a situation where the character attempting to breach simply cannot do damage.
  

6. I don't see any restrictions on who can attempt this, or in what order, or any consequences on the battle. If a hero tries it, are they no longer attached to their unit? If a commander or sub-commander were to try it, would they have to renounce command first? Do you have to make your way across the battlefield to the walls to try it, or is that hand-waived away? For that matter, would a success at this offer any benefits to the battle?

7. Perhaps diminishing difficulty but also diminishing returns for people who try later? Fewer/lower skilled enemies, less dangerous DfA ammo, etc - the good ones have been killed off or used up.

8. Those 4 DoS awards look nice, but are going to be impossible for most characters. A character with Warfare/Will 3 tops out at an 18 (barring DP/benefits), which is not even 3 DoS against a small castle. Against anything tougher, even those with 4 Warfare/Will will be unable to attain 4 DoS (max of 24). Lowering the difficulty or ramping up the rewards would help make this more achievable.

9. Would there be any bonuses if the castle walls or gate were breached? That could encourage investment in siege other than scorpions.

10. I don't really think we'll have a good grasp the difficulty of this until we see some attempts by real characters at it. I'll run Baelon through in a little while, after I handle some other threads waiting for my attention.

[Darron Greyjoy]

First attempt:

Just one example of a I would consider a well rounded warrior PC going through it.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Just curious, is this basically a Warfare or die situation? I imagine a lot of the characters taking this on will be good individual fighters, but not have high Warfare. Might be a misconception, but thought I ought to mention it.

[Baelon Drakeson]

First attempt:

Just one example of a I would consider a well rounded warrior PC going through it.

I think you over-did those archers. I believe the "+4" is the result of their assists/coordinates, and they only get +1B, so 5d6k4, not 6d6k4. Also I think you meant injuries, not wounds there? Also you shorted yourself on the water damage - it would be 10 ignoring AR... though given the above about archers you might have only had a -3 to the roll, meaning you would actually only take 1 DoS for 5 damage that ignores AR... still rather bad.

[Darron Greyjoy]

Well from reading what it said I got from it that the archers base is 5d6k4 with a +4 for the assist then the commander rolls with a TN 12 for a +B depending on DoS. Yes meant Injuries. I can't see anything about the damage of boiling water being modified by DoS, I got the damage code from pg 180.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Just curious, is this basically a Warfare or die situation? I imagine a lot of the characters taking this on will be good individual fighters, but not have high Warfare. Might be a misconception, but thought I ought to mention it.

A good warfare roll would definitely be helpful, but I'm not sure it would be make-or-break at the current difficulties/rewards. I'll be rolling up a run shortly, and have a pretty good roll for that. That will give us a good point of comparison.

Well from reading what it said I got from it that the archers base is 5d6k4 with a +4 for the assist then the commander rolls with a TN 12 for a +B depending on DoS. Yes meant Injuries. I can't see anything about the damage of boiling water being modified by DoS, I got the damage code from pg 180.

Well then, we've found some points that need clarifying. This is why playtesting is important.

[Nathaniel Mason]

TN's should be base 12, I think (passive fighting test of opposing cannon fodder) and then at +1 for tower, +2 for hall, etc.

There should be a Fighting test after the Courage test as the individual cleaves past the defenders. (The Mountain is not known for his strategic brilliance, but I can see him doing this.)

I don't have a problem with the Archer assists. Assuming they are using crossbows (which was more common for castle defense than the longbow) they would more often than not be assisted by loaders. The co-ordinate as a Sergent barks 'Fire' orders is also reasonable.

Death from Above seems to be just another form of Archer Volley and should be Marksmanship 4. If you want to represent 'hazards', rocks are more an inconvenience unless you a green farmer recruit. Boiling water was never used unless you lived by the sea. In a siege situation, you did not waste your fresh water by pouring it on the enemy. Boiling oil was common, in limited supply. Wildfire is incredibly expensive and I would think be reserved for opposing siege engines.

[Theomore Tullison]

A rock dropped from the top of the wall can be deadly enough though.

[Nathaniel Mason]

A rock dropped from the top of the wall can be deadly enough though.

True... but as I said, not usually to 'special snowflake' PCs.  Personally I would just do an Agility (Dodge) vs. a TN16 and have the PC take an injury on a failure and a Wound on a crit failure.  The source of the damage is really only narratively relevant.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

A rock dropped from the top of the wall can be deadly enough though.

Fetchez la vache!

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