Re: Transitions, Narrators, and Phase 2.

[Ser Alfred Haigh]

Well, that sure escalated quickly.

That being said, are people here actively questioning every descision, parsing every post and deride narrator-compentence ? I find that impression to be somewhat too strong. It's a transition period and people want to know whats ahead of them with the narrator switch. That includes wanting to be sure the transitional period goes over smoothly. hence, I think of what is happening in here less like 'What you do stinks and I want something else, booo !' and more like 'We had A, now we have B. How is that going to have an impact on my character ? Am I going to lose stuff I have prepared or planned ? Did I get how the new proposed system works right ?'

You'll notice that people in general so far haven't questioned the general fact of your very brave and altruistic choice to take over as head narrator. What they have done as far as I have been seeing is debating smaller details that they are not too sure on or wonder/worry about. The support for your position is broad and the Nathan thing is one thing being discussed, although it looks like that discusion is nearing an end also. So I have to say this message you posted comes a bit out of the blue for me. Unless you got an inbox full of PMs titled 'What you do stinks and I want something else, booo !'

Which I couldn't tell, because I can't see yourPM folder, which may or may not be for the best, heh heh. So still out of the blue, I guess.
I'm not really in a position to ask you to reconsider, perhaps you arent even in a position to read this anymore, who knows ? However, I think my point stands. People want to work with you and have given you wide-spread support. Thats a lot to work with and you can see they are interested, motivated and engaged. That's a lot more than I have seen on other boards in a comparable position. I think it's wonderful material to work with, even if being swamped with those small little details now because people don't yet know what sort of narrator you are, how you handle different things and all that jazz.

Admittedly, i havent been here for very long and don't know some of the local intricacies and other stuffs that may or may not have played a role, too. But yes, that's my thoughts on this. No matter what comes out in the end, kudos for being willing to be there for the board in it's time of need and the continued effort you, like all others, have poured into this board to make it the pretty awesome place it's today.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

No! Please don't! Everything is just new and most folk are just wanting to have a clearer idea of what's happening going forward. Please don't leave because of the few. If you need more support, I volunteer.

[Ser Walton Dulver]

So Baelon takes over Narrator spot, right?

[Reader]

So Baelon takes over Narrator spot, right?

Deep breath and a pause for understanding and discussion first.

Edit: above shouldn't be read as implying anyone has acted in a hasty/ill considered many, people have clearly laid out their thinking so far. Simply don't want next step to be hasty.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

So Baelon takes over Narrator spot, right?

No. Also what Reader said.

People shouldn't make decisions while they are angry or upset. As Alfred said, when things are changing, people have questions, but lots of them at once can look like a barrage of challenges. It's like Civ. There's always one turn of chaos after a change of government style, before things settle down.

[Ser Alfred Haigh]

And Gandhi messing up your stuff. But we don't have him here at least ! XD
So yeah, let's not get hasty here.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

And Gandhi messing up your stuff. But we don't have him here at least ! XD
So yeah, let's not get hasty here.

Gandhi and his bloomin nuclear weapons. *shakes fist*

[Loreia]

I find that impression to be somewhat too strong. It's a transition period and people want to know whats ahead of them with the narrator switch. That includes wanting to be sure the transitional period goes over smoothly.

This is essentially the right of it. In PM and in house thread discussion, I have communicated nothing but support and advocacy for Nathan to be elected as narrator. I have leaned a little toward Baelon's side regarding mechanics, but in the end I'm willing to accept that the GM has final say and I have no hard feelings on the matter whatsoever. I'm very shocked that the transition has seen such an explosive beginning before even being implemented, and that it continues to be an issue, if it indeed has been. Baelon hasn't weighed in yet, after elaboration.

Baelon, we all want this game to continue and we want our narrator to succeed, and this is beginning to sound like a non-partisan speech after election day. We all bring forth our concerns, give praise and criticism, because we love this game and we want to have fun. However, we can't let our past experiences decide whether to proceed at all in situations we've seen before. Experience should mold what we do in familiar situations as they arise, not force us to avoid them like the plague. After how it's been explained to you, if you haven't responded because you can't consider your worries soothed and would rather not nut-up and give Nathan the chance he deserves, then what are you left with?

Nothing.

[Theomore Tullison]

Yeah, well.

So here's the thing, there's a small minority doing that, and I suspect that most of us, I certainly am, has long since grown tired of that sort of behavior. I don't think it's actually necessary to deign such posts with a reply. If people want to influence you, then they better do so constructively, and if they are too unhappy they can leave.

So I am sort of saying here: Be Nathan the Tyrant if you must, because as I see it, the alternative is that we scrap this one and start up with something new, and I'd prefer Nathan the Tyrant.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

That...seems sudden. Is this something that can be talked about?

[Aerion Storm]

"So Baelon takes over Narrator spot, right?"

I sure hope not, because the precedent that sets is "badger the Narrator into quitting and you get the job," which might be great in Westeros but is crummy in the real world. What's the point on voting if the runner-up can just nitpick and doubt and challenge the winner into quitting, and get the job anyways? Is this recent turn of events supposed to make people want Baelon for the job MORE, really?

Ugh.

[Luecian LongBow]

Well, this is suddenly not going in a positive direction. I'm hopeful we can take a few deep breaths and reconsider as I do think there is so much more support than questions or contention.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Baelon has made it clear to Nathan that he intended to challenge all of Nathan's decisions. If he isn't going to respect a 13-2 vote against him and respect Nathan's decisions as HN, he should not be in the game.

Nathan does not deserve to be bullied away, or made to endure a toxic environment, which is what Baelon has created with his unnecessary adversarial behaviour.

I will be following Nathan in leaving if Baelon is let away with bullying our rightfully elected HN away from the forum. Frankly, I think that shoild be a banning offence.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Argh. I just had a lengthy post mostly written up, but lost it due to accidentally navigating off the page. Stupid finicky blue-tooth keyboard.  
I will address the most relevant bits first, this has taken long enough already and I haven't had any coffee yet.  
I'll post other bits later, if appropriate.

It is difficult to write this, especially after all the wonderful support most of you have shown me, but after speaking with friends, family, and fellow narrators, I am forced to face facts and come to a decision.

I am leaving Dragon's Dance.

I am very sorry to hear that. You have brought a lot of interesting story and excellent writing, and it will be missed.

I'm sorry.  I wanted to be there for you.  I wanted to try and support the game that I and so many have devoted so much time towards.  I wanted to make an effort to try and improve the game.  Most of all, I wanted to provide good and riveting story for you all.  I wanted to provide challenges and excitement and drama.

However, I don't see that happening.  I cannot be your Narrator if every decision I make is questioned, every post I make is parsed, my very competence as a Narrator derided.  I cannot be your Narrator if the vast majority of my time is devoted to defending my position, justifying my choices or asked to constantly second guess the path I wish to take.  To be honest, I don't know any narrator that could.

As Alfred said, I cannot know the contents of your PM box, save for the two messages I sent in response to the two messages you sent me. I have some inkling that others may not have been so public with their thoughts as I have been and thus you are not simply referring to what I have said here.... that being said, as it at minimum appears to be about what I have said here, I will address it as such.

First, to be blunt, I don;t know why you seem so surprised, and yes you do know a narrator that could deal with it - Reader has been doing so since the inception of this game. I suspect you could too, if you tried. Yes, we as players have been pushing and prodding, arguing and complaining, asking for the impossible, and pushing the envelope since the inception of the game. Honestly, I see that as a feature, not a bug. If someone is unhappy about something, they can express it. It may make a difference or it may not... but at least they felt able to speak up. I look back over old OOC threads periodically (especially the Mechanics one, but others too). I would say that almost everyone has expressed dislike for something at some point or another, except for those who are too new to have had much of a chance to do so. This game has not been solely Reader's creation - as we talk about what we like and don't like, Reader did his best to incorporate that into the game. It made the game richer and more enjoyable for the players.

Second, I have never disparaged your abilities as a narrator. I have argued with some of your decisions, but never doubted your ability. Remember, I wanted you to be Story Narrator if I became Head Narrator. I would not have said so if I did not think you had excellent Also, I have said over and over again that my criticisms were founded not on your capability, but on the potential for players to see your actions for something other than you intended.

My leaving should not have a substantial effect narratively.  Nathan was to go off to House Roxton anyway, support his love with his considerable skills, and have lots of fabulous sex.  I will miss him.

I genuinely wish all of you well.  I do not know what the future holds for you, but I hope it is full of joy and laughter, good reading and good writing.  I hope this game finds it's way, and if not, I wish you happiness in the other games you pursue and the fellowship that only good gaming brings.

Thank you all for the last two years, and thank you for welcoming my little whore in the shadows.

To continue with my usually blunt ways... that's a bit of an overreaction, don't you think? Even if you no longer feel you can take on the Narrator position, that's no reason to walk away from the game completely, is it? At least stick around and play.

...

Well said, Ser. I heartily agree.

So Baelon takes over Narrator spot, right?

As Corrine said, no. To be blunt, I wouldn't want to take over this way. If we can't talk Nathan off the metaphorical ledge, we will have to have another frank discussion about how to move forward. If at that time the player base wants me to be Head Narrator, I would accept. Like this though.... no.

Baelon, we all want this game to continue and we want our narrator to succeed, and this is beginning to sound like a non-partisan speech after election day. We all bring forth our concerns, give praise and criticism, because we love this game and we want to have fun. However, we can't let our past experiences decide whether to proceed at all in situations we've seen before. Experience should mold what we do in familiar situations as they arise, not force us to avoid them like the plague. After how it's been explained to you, if you haven't responded because you can't consider your worries soothed and would rather not nut-up and give Nathan the chance he deserves, then what are you left with?

I had not responded because I was, in fact, asleep. I know it can seem like I live on this board 24/7, I do occasionally need to get a few winks in.  
My response to the latest round of clarifications is the largest bulk of what I lost from the first version of this post, and which I will rewrite if appropriate - it's kind of pointless to do so if Nathan won't (to borrow your phrase) nut-up and deal with the criticism that is an endemic part of narrating this game. I think he can do it, but that doesn't matter if he does not or is not willing to try.

The gist of it was that the recent revisions to the plan were much, much, better.  I had one point of dislike regarding the potential plot involvement of Nathan-the-character, and a lengthy bit explaining my inspiration for having tracks and why I thought they would (or at least could) produce some amazing RP of a sort we've only gotten the merest hint of so far (Mostly from Corrine and Ben during the Velaryon event, but also Gwyn at the Masquerade and some of the Phase 1 KL scenes, particularly between Corrine, Ben, and Aerion).

So here's the thing, there's a small minority doing that, and I suspect that most of us, I certainly am, has long since grown tired of that sort of behavior. I don't think it's actually necessary to deign such posts with a reply. If people want to influence you, then they better do so constructively, and if they are too unhappy they can leave.

That's rich, coming from you. You've certainly not been shy about publicly arguing against Reader in the past.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Baelon has made it clear to Nathan that he intended to challenge all of Nathan's decisions. If he isn't going to respect a 13-2 vote against him and respect Nathan's decisions as HN, he should not be in the game.

Nathan does not deserve to be bullied away, or made to endure a toxic environment, which is what Baelon has created with his unnecessary adversarial behaviour.

I will be following Nathan in leaving if Baelon is let away with bullying our rightfully elected HN away from the forum. Frankly, I think that shoild be a banning offence.

It's no more bullying than your rightful complaints post Story 2.
I had no ill will, and no desire for Nathan to leave the game or even step down from Head Narrator.
If caring about the game is a banning offense, it will be a very small and crappy game.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Baelon has made it clear to Nathan that he intended to challenge all of Nathan's decisions. If he isn't going to respect a 13-2 vote against him and respect Nathan's decisions as HN, he should not be in the game.

Nathan does not deserve to be bullied away, or made to endure a toxic environment, which is what Baelon has created with his unnecessary adversarial behaviour.

I will be following Nathan in leaving if Baelon is let away with bullying our rightfully elected HN away from the forum. Frankly, I think that shoild be a banning offence.

It's no more bullying than your rightful complaints post Story 2.
I had no ill will, and no desire for Nathan to leave the game or even step down from Head Narrator.
If caring about the game is a banning offense, it will be a very small and crappy game.

I can't believe you are still oblivious to how many people you have alienated. You BULLIED Nathan into leaving. You do not get to bully someone away because you are toxic to their mental health, and then act like you're sorry to see them go. You should be the one leaving, not him. You do not get to deliberately challenge every decision. You don't do it to Reader. You are being a petty bully and I'm fed up with your posturing and gaslighting.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Okay, everyone please just stop for a second. Please.

Tensions and emotions are running high, and I feel like things are being said that can't be unsaid. Escalating things.

Lets just take a collective deep breath here.

[Reader]

Locked for now.

[Reader]

First, thanks to Alfred for expressing things well without the baggage that other players may well have. I think his reading is close to one that I'd have of the situation. Questions are natural during a transition, but can be overwhelming if they arrive in an avalanche (and even the odd complaint can feel like a swarm when you've got a lot of personal messages!), so I don't want to diminish Nathaniel's feelings on things. Additionally, most of us cannot see the PMs involved (not even your handsome narrator, with his formidable Admin powers!).

Helpful to have such a well expressed post from a newish player.

Additionally, I may well bear much of the blame here: my discursive & consensual style may have given Baelon the impression that this was how things would continue to be done, while it's just as reasonable for Nathaniel to find such question (borne of concern for the game) as representing doubts in his abilities.

Corrine, I know you care deeply about the game and admire your passion, but on the available evidence (public posts and a few PMs exchanged between the players, which I've not seen) I can't begin to call this bullying or gaslighting.

Thanks to many others for expressing positive wishes and engaging constructively. Theomore - your post has the right sentiment, but it's one you've not always lived up to in your own posts. You have not always struck a positive, polite constructive tone. I appreciate you as an active, fun player and you were/are an asset to the game, but you're the only player currently on a warning.

A day or so for people to think things over and/or bounce PMs to me, then I'll consider the next step.

Even in an absolute worst case, I'll try to wrap things with epilogues for various characters, but hopefully it won't come to that.

[Reader]

Adding from Coldbrook-Drakeson forum:

[I] apologise for my tone and tactlessness.

It's important to share a sincere, public apology, whether or not it restores matters. If everyone is to leave (worst case), it's best they do so with honour and better memories of one another.

[Reader]

One more try! You need to be an optimist to be an equity investor anyway.

Should clarify that Baelon's apology above was to everyone, and was only in the Coldbrook forum because this thread is locked. My lack of clarity above seems to only inflame the situation further with some people. Sorry - this misunderstanding was my fault.

I have (a minute or so ago!) sent Nathaniel a suggested route forward, that would preserve the will of the clear majority here and hopefully allow Baelon to remain without being judged a bully.

I would like to respect Corrine's feelings on that point, as people have a right to their own feelings not being gainsaid, while noting Alfred's point that Baelon may have meant things as simple questions and concerns (justifiable at a handover), but expressed himself poorly. This is a hard one, as if you have a robust detailed style and that rubs people the wrong way, they may justifiably feel bullied/harassed - the accused then seeks to defend themselves (as most would in the face of such a charge), which comes across to the other party as more of the very thing that intimidated them.

It may be that if Baelon is to stay, such concerns/questions are best managed via me (Nathaniel doesn't want to spend time answering lots of questions) and that everyone is 100% clear that Nathaniel is in charge (I don't want my presence to undermine him).

Suggestions, feelings, complaints welcome. I'm doing my best, but will confess feelings and judging social environments are a tough ask for investment analysts...

I'm doing a poor job spending less time on this for my new thing.

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