Re: Character Creation Workshop

[Theomore Tullison]

Yeah, the lost brother thing is going to be challenging as a story driver, in so far as how the structure of this game is like.

In short, we're having chapters where everyone comes together for some major happening, chapter 1 was a tourney at Riverrun, chapter 2 was putting an end to yet another case of blood being drawn in the Bracken/Blackwood feud, chapter 3 appears to have something to do with a renewed campaign in the Stepstones, I think. Primarily each house (and character) attempts to pursue their ambitions in an environment where the greens and blacks are constantly seeking to gain advantages over the other.

That being said, if your character is ill-equipped to search for the brother (a specialist combatant would probably not be the best at such a thing) and has learned that he was last seen venturing into the Riverlands, then that might prompt your character into signing up with a player house to gain help in return for the services of his sword, which would solve the problem of including you into the main story, but the independent status would be shed rather quickly.

The burning people alive thing is...well, that's probably a line that once crossed, nobody will want to be associated with you and most will refuse to have anything to do with you at all (Theomore will happily enlist you through middle-men though, there's always some problems to solve with a sharp instrument), so you may indeed want to tone that part down. There's plenty of other disturbing habits that won't make you a pariah and are less likely to result in premature execution.

Status, the chapter 3 table should only be used if house creation is not, since we're using house creation, the one in chapter 4 is the relevant one for you, your character sounds like having a similar position as a hedge knight, so 2. You might get around this by taking a status flaw which you can't remove before your character moves up in the world, but that's to be negotiated with reader. Example characters in the rulebook(s) have a tendency to be rather erronous.

It would also seem that it need not necessarily be the first night tradition, seeing that any male Targaryen would be welcome into the bed of most smallfolk women on Dragonstone.

Fighting 5 plus massive is primarily a power balance issue, seeing as it allows you to use a shield with the most deadly weapons around, it's mostly that reader wants us PC's to be within a set range when it comes to abilities so that he can challenge the strongest without mopping the floor with the "
merely good"
ones.

Moving and stuff is in this post: viewtopic.php?p=11409#p11409
The house rule thread needs cleanup, but the rule is enforced, we've had discussions on it, I don't think we can change reader's mind.

Benefits...you already have massive and berserker, both really strong for combat, so I'd look into something for social...with disturbing habit, I'd consider expertise(intimidate), which would give you a social dice pool. Squeeze in persuasion 3 and you can get 5D that way, lots of fun to be had with that if you feel up for it.

Drawbacks and DP, it's on page 72 under gaining destiny points. Also, the bastard drawback need not apply if you're just smallfolk. It's mostly for bastards that is actually acknowledged (as in, daddy taking you to court and proclaiming you his son, but that would probably mess up your entire backstory) that get the name. To nobles, smallfolk is smallfolk, nobody cares if you have a noble daddy unless noble daddy decides to claim you as his son. Haughty also has this bit about acting inappropriately, but "
proper conduct"
is not necessarily the "
Propriety as defined by Westerosi nobles"
.

[Yoren longshore]

I think that the lost brother thing could be the most interesting aspect of a character. Looking for either a Targaryen lord or a bastard will result in a quite nice shoe-in for most situations. Perhaps broadening it to sibling would work twice as well, but I think that having to look for a Targaryen half brother, convince him that you are brothers could be a very interesting story arc.

I think that it seems like a cool concept, especially as it's not specified who your brother is. It could be anyone, or it can simpky be that Targaryen madness runs in your veins :;
):

[Nathaniel Mason]

Massive:

I have always viewed this quality as kind of pointless. It's strength lies in the ability to carry a shield as well as a two-handed sword. It's a defensive rather than offensive quality (you do the same damage with a greatsword whether is be one hand or two). The problem with it is the same as Shield Mastery. Any intelligent fighter will attack your shield in the first few rounds, rather than you. Once your shield is splinters, you're back to where you started. Even faster if they are using a Shattering Weapon. Based on your concept, I would recommend Pious. FAR more useful on a day to day basis.

Birth:

As others have stated, the circumstances of your birth are a bit sketchy. Is there a narrative reason for it? You could just as easily be the bastard of Bill the Blacksmith. Or not a bastard at all but raised in the local Lord's holding. Do you even know the circumstances of your birth? Most people don't have any memory prior to the age of 6. Who told you? Were they telling the truth? Does the circumstances of your birth even matter at the moment, since you don't remember anything of your childhood due to your head injury?

Trial:

As others have said, slaves don't get trials, and if you are as competent by this point as you claim, what Master in his right mind would allow such a thing to happen? They would torture you, kill you, torture and kill you, or if worse came to worse, poison you before such a trial. The Church would not interfere in the politics of the Masters unless there was clear benefit to them, and the Masters would not allow any challenge to their authority and would make a very public example of you. I am not even sure Trials by Combat are a Essos thing. They seem very Westerosi (and then limited to the nobility). Would not a Master just sell a troublesome slave to the gladitorial pits?

Disturbing habit:

There is cruel and there is evil menace. I can guarantee burning people alive willy-nilly will get you killed pretty quickly, regardless of your fighting stats. If you want to go that route, by all means. Just be aware that if you antagonize the wrong people (NC or PC) your search for your brother will come to a rather abrupt and ignominious end. If you do go this route, I would suggest Reviled or Outcast rather than Disturbing Habit. The Red God has little support as it is in Westeros and burning people will be.... frowned upon.

Depending on why and how often you burn people, I would think Cruel Insanity, no matter how you may justify it with your religion.

Narrative:

I love a good childhood tragedy. Children that have safe and secure upbringings in Westeros grow up to be Tommen or Renly. However, I would like to see a more nuanced result of those tragedies. His motivation is stability. Would he have enjoyed the life of a slave if he'd been treated well and valued more? The life of a slave is actually very stable and routine most of the time. What is he doing to pursue that stability now? Would swearing your sword to an established House give you the stability you need? Do you fight against your cruelty or do you indulge it? Do you have people that care about you that support you in your fight against your more sinister nature? If you don't is that something you are looking for? If you find your brother, what will he think of the choices you have made in your life? (Not the choices made for you.)

Right now I am seeing your character as more of a caricature. Lots of broad black strokes, a bit of white, and practically no grey. You may have had a terrible past, but no-one will care if you have a terrible present. The fight for redemption is a great story arc. The reader doesn't even care if they fail so long as the person tries. Look how many people like the Hound. Contrast that with the Mountain (another caricature). He's just the monster. He was before Qyburn, and that did not change.

[Loreia]

Can you point out the part in the core book where it says if you take more drawbacks you get extra DP as I cant find it.

Absolutely. Theo pointed to page 72, which says there must be an explanation. It's also mentioned on page 91 under Drawbacks. My character is in the Adult age range. I had 4 Destiny Points, I bought 3 Qualities and took 1 Drawback(in addition to the first) all at character creation, so I had 2 Destiny Points when I joined the game.

In the core book there are a few characters that have status 3 that could also fall under freeman such as a merchant and a prostitute. I would imagine being a priest of R'hllor would enable Fionn to be status 3. I never specified who was Fionns actual father as I dont have a clue who would have been at Dragonstone at the time. But yea anyone of Valyrian descent that lived on Dragonstone at the time would have been offered the right of first night as the people of Dragonstone see them as literal gods and the pairing of them being good luck. As it was outlawed I highly doubt Fionns mother would have tried to press his heritage if it was the king.

I knew priesthood would give you more status, but I didn't follow up in my post.

On Disturbing Habits: I thought it was just a physical tick or an unnerving behavior people notice that makes it easier to Intimidate but hampers your ability to use Persuasion in any other way. This guy feels compelled burn people. Maybe he likes it, or maybe he believes the practice should be more frequent and prevalent. The implication is that he's done it before, which would merit the Ignoble Drawback.

I don't want to give you the impression that I'm trying to make your build less capable because of your character's compulsion towards immolation. Compared to a disturbing habit, the desire to burn people alive is kind of a bigger deal.

Background ideas, slavery/priesthood
The temple takes in children and buys slaves to raise/train as priests, prostitutes for the temple, and warriors who protect the priests and temples. The Fiery Hand protect the "
greater temples"
. I don't think it's explained under what circumstances a member of the Fiery Hand would no longer be a member, though, and they only ever have 1,000 in their army. They could probably resign when they get too old. Perhaps you were bought by a priest and trained to be a warrior, but "
switched vocations"
and became a priest instead, so that you could use pilgrimage to Westeros as an excuse (a perk provided by your conversion to R'hllor, and your Stability motivation) to look for your brother in the Seven Kingdoms? Perhaps by the time you find your brother, he's already involved in the civil war, and your goal becomes saving him? It's all up to you.

[Theomore Tullison]

Well, status derived from being a red priest could be a tricky subject best discussed with reader. To me, status has two components:
1. The ability of wielding one's authority and command respect because of your position. (your rank).
2. The amount of authority and respect you could potentially wield (the maximum status rank you may obtain, as per table).

Viserys II probably had more status rank that the kings he served as hand to, for example. Same with Tywin.

Of course, as Aerys II liked to remind Tywin, being king means that you can make whatever decision you please and people will carry it out (or rebel against you), though being a weak king means that your advisers have an easier time manipulating you into taking the action they want you to do.

The tricky part is that while a red priest might well have the ability to command respect signified by a status 3 rank, the influence/power/position you get to have in Westeros by dint of being a red priest is pretty much non-existing.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Well, status derived from being a red priest could be a tricky subject best discussed with reader. To me, status has two components:
1. The ability of wielding one's authority and command respect because of your position. (your rank).
2. The amount of authority and respect you could potentially wield (the maximum status rank you may obtain, as per table).

The tricky part is that while a red priest might well have the ability to command respect signified by a status 3 rank, the influence/power/position you get to have in Westeros by dint of being a red priest is pretty much non-existing.

Right, there is a big difference between rank and max rank. The way I see it is that max rank is the mechanical reflection of the respect due someone as a result of their position. In Westeros, that generally means one of five things (in no particular order):
1) Nobility (including knights)
2) Maesters
3) Clergy of the Seven
4) Foreign dignitaries (foreign nobles and their emissaries, merchant 'princes', representatives of powerful factions, etc.)
5) Those who have caught the attention of powerful nobles without having inherent authority (i.e. those who can, in theory at least, influence those powerful nobles).

One might think that red priests fall into category 4, but that doesn't actually seem to be the case, at least in general. The Red Priests simply aren't a political power, even in Essos. Benerro is only deemed dangerous because he is promoting Daenarys, and there was fear of a slave uprising.

When considering the Max Status of Red Preists in Westeros, we should look at the ones in the books. There are three: Melissandre [of Asshai], Moqorro, and Thoros of Myr. Mel is an easy one. She clearly falls into category 5 (like a bad hurricane :p). She has status because she has the ear of Stannis. Anyone with that much influence over a king is going to be able to influence others as a result. However, anyone who rejects Stannis's authority (like those who deny his claim to the throne) would not give her that respect. Moqorro is the same - if Victarion did not vouch for him, he would have been killed out of hand.

Thoros is more complicated. He started as an emissary to Mad King Aerys (category 4), but did not really start getting respect (i.e. Status) until after Robert's Rebellion. Prior to that he was allowed in court, but had no real influence (similar to a relative of a minor noble or a hedge knight) - Status 2, probably (I'd say Littlefinger was of similar status when in the Arryn court, as well - Status can change drastically over time). He gained influence under Robert, as he was a favored drinking companion. Under Robert, he would have shifted more into category 5, especially as he started to lose his faith and was no longer representing the church of the LoL. Even still he probably didn't have much influence, at most Status 3. He then garnered respect by being the first over the walls of Pyke fighting against the Greyjoy Rebellion. He has also made a name for himself winning a number of tourney melees. At the time of the books, he is essentially treated as a knight - in fact, he even jousts in the tourney for Joffrey's nameday (unhorsing Beric Dondarrion, of all people). Status 3, maybe even 4. Enough that he was named to accompany Beric, and named specifically by Joffrey as someone needing to swear fealty to him or be branded a traitor - both unusual for a foreigner, and unheard of for smallfolk.

[Nathaniel Mason]

The tricky part is that while a red priest might well have the ability to command respect signified by a status 3 rank, the influence/power/position you get to have in Westeros by dint of being a red priest is pretty much non-existing.

Would not a Flaw or drawback represent this?

You could do a variation on Outcast. Perhaps he has a 3 Status in Essos but a -2D to Status in Westeros. (While he may be recognized and respected in areas that the Red God wields power, in Westeros he might be considered irrelevant at best and a heretic at worst.) It would make his effective Status a 1 for rolls, but his Status would still be rank 3 for Intrigue Defense and whether he can be compelled.

It also makes good narrative, whether he chooses to buy off the drawback or keep it.

[Darron Greyjoy]

Yea thanks for the input guys I assume reader will give me the details about whats what when he gets the chance.

[Darron Greyjoy]

Heres the warg character that I had been knocking about.

-- Age

Young adult, 15

-- Name

(No name yet)

-- Physical description

5,10

Dark haired could easily be mistaken for a person in his late teens/early twenties in part due to his well groomed facial hair, stature
and rugged apparel.

-- Role

Expert (Warg/animal handeling)

-- Background

Achieved a significant deed (While warged he hunted down a local bandit (Not set in stone))

-- Goal

Mastery (Mastering his warging abilities)

-- Motivation

Excellence (Wants to find out the limits of his abilities)

-- Virtue

Humble (Doesn't like to show off or gloat)

-- Vice

Wrathful (Finds it hard to forgive anyone that wrongs him and will attempt to return in kind)

-- Ability xp 180

Status 10

Willpower 70

Cunning 70

Animal handling 10

Awareness 10

Language 10

-- Special xp 60

AH (Training) 30

WP (Dedication) 30

-- Quality's

Animal cohort (Undecided animal)

Warg

Warg dreams

-- Drawbacks

Fear attractive woman (Becomes a nervous wreck around them)

Bound to the bottle (Growing up he spent his pasttimes stealing alcohol with his animal cohort)

Flaw healing (Has little to no interest in knowing how to cure ailments)

Flaw warfare (Being not exactly the most martial man about he knows that he will never be leading armys and with his current lot in life he really doesnt see that changing)

-- Destiny pool

6

-- Money

10.5 GD = 2205 SS

-- Items

10 * Trained dogs 11 SS ea

courser 600 SS

Wagon 10 SS

Sled 5 SS

Saddlebags 1 SS

Leather hard 400 SS

Crossbow medium 400 SS

Battle axe 50 SS

1576 Total SS

--

[Theomore Tullison]

You'll be breaking the cap of no more (volunteer) drawbacks than benefits with that. Also, this build looks extremely one-sided mechanically, which means it's likely to be rather challenging to play.

[Darron Greyjoy]

You'll be breaking the cap of no more (volunteer) drawbacks than benefits with that. Also, this build looks extremely one-sided mechanically, which means it's likely to be rather challenging to play.

I cant find any source on there being a cap any help? Way I see it what I lack in other skills I supplement with being able to warg.

[Theomore Tullison]

It's on page 91, though house ruled to only apply to volunteer drawbacks as otherwise it's illegal to make a very old or venerable character that isn't feeble.

And I still think that's going to be quite a challenge, but as long as you think you'll enjoy it, don't let that stop you.

[Septon Arlyn]

Another thing that I might consider is to have your secondary skill set be intrigued. At-will 5 you'll already be a pretty powerful condenser and have enough composure to take a hit or two as you would likely not be going first

[Yoren longshore]

Heres the warg character that I had been knocking about.

Fear attractive woman (Becomes a nervous wreck around them)
--

This will play out marvelously (Especially as I think that all but one of our female PCs are attractive )

[Theomore Tullison]

And the other one(s) just happens to be perfectly able to cleave you in half with a sword :mrgreen:

[Darron Greyjoy]

Another thing that I might consider is to have your secondary skill set be intrigued. At-will 5 you'll already be a pretty powerful condenser and have enough composure to take a hit or two as you would likely not be going first

Yea I had thought about this possibly once out of gen working on upping social skills.

This will play out marvelously (Especially as I think that all but one of our female PCs are attractive )

And the other one(s) just happens to be perfectly able to cleave you in half with a sword :mrgreen:

Yea I imagine him stuttering his words fumbling his hands and trying to figure a way out of the situation as quickly as possible. The guy has probably never even thought about a woman being a warrior and would find it odd why they would even want to.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Yea I imagine him stuttering his words fumbling his hands and trying to figure a way out of the situation as quickly as possible. The guy has probably never even thought about a woman being a warrior and would find it odd why they would even want to.

From the south then, and ignorant of history?
Northerners fight wildling spearwives and a few warrior women of their own such as our own Ser Loreia Durant;
Valefolk fight clanswomen warriors and some may know of the fierce Dyana Marsten.
The tell-tale games have female pit-fighters and mercenaries in Essos (not sure if there's any canon reference to those, though). Occasional women bandits are not unheard of, either.
Even those with little or no formal education will have heard stories of Aegon the Conqueror's sister-wives and maybe even the warrior-queen Nymeria of Dorne.

Not understanding why they'd want to, or not approving is perfectly reasonable for a character (particularly but not exclusively Green-oriented characters), but just about everyone will have at least heard of the concept. :;
):

[Theomore Tullison]

Add Sabitha Vypren and Black Aly Blackwood in the Riverlands, so it's a bit too many examples to never have heard of any. But that doesn't mean he can't have extreme difficulty coming to grips with the subject of women not wearing dresses and having a place anywhere outside the kitchen. It's common enough in places much more enlightened than Westeros after all. The Black Aly bit is rather interesting seeing that Raventree would happen to be the ideal area for a warg to originate from considering it's rather obvious who the three eyed crow is.

Also, if you ever want to go the social route, you kinda ought to get a 3 in persuasion at creation rather than horribly expensive later.

[Nathaniel Mason]

I would argue that most people (Status 1 or 2) have never seen a female warrior and would probably discount stories of them as fantasies told to children and the gullible.

Communication in the 15th century was notoriously absent. Most communities got their information from wandering travelers, and that information was often inaccurate or exaggerated.

Some may have heard about Aegon's sister-wives (most not. That was 125 years ago (our game). How many of the population today know much about 19th century history, even with the internet.) Those that do might consider them 'women who rode dragons' rather than 'women warriors'.

As far as the northern ice-wives, even Tywin Lannister discounted them and much of the stories of the north as fairy tales.

There have been a large number of women warriors throughout history, but if you asked the common man to name them, if you got more than Joan of Arc or Boudicca, if that, I'd be very much surprised.

If anyone (even most Japanese) can name the only known female Japanese Samurais in history (without looking it up on the Internet) I would be shocked (and that was about 150 years ago).

[Loreia]

Let alone a female knight, even less heard of, and I was only recently knighted.

[Reader]

Let alone a female knight, even less heard of, and I was only recently knighted.

Notoriety and scandal among higher status types, prejudiced ignorance from the smallfolk. Have a nice life.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Women who conform rarely make history. :;
):

[Reader]

Women who conform rarely make history. :;
):

Just think what a Green victory will lead to being written about you/Loreia in future histories!

You'll do well to get a write-up as kind as Sabitha Vypren in that scenario.

[Theomore Tullison]

Eh, Aegon II only ruled for 6 months before kicking the bucket and succeeded by Rhaenyra's son (who in turn had a council of regents and the old black and green sides bickering between each other for supremacy)...so, happy times.

Full green victory, as in Aegon II actually getting to grow old as king would probably make Sabitha's description a wee bit less flattering methinks.

And Theo will go down in history as the great Lord Theomore the conciliator who brought peace and justice back to the realms, healing the rifts and wounds between the two bitter sides of the nastiest civil war in the history of westeros :mrgreen:

[Reader]

Eh, Aegon II only ruled for 6 months before kicking the bucket and succeeded by Rhaenyra's son (who in turn had a council of regents and the old black and green sides bickering between each other for supremacy)...so, happy times.

Full green victory, as in Aegon II actually getting to grow old as king would probably make Sabitha's description a wee bit less flattering methinks.

And Theo will go down in history as the great Lord Theomore the conciliator who brought peace and justice back to the realms, healing the rifts and wounds between the two bitter sides of the nastiest civil war in the history of westeros :mrgreen:

If/when we ever get to the end, it would be fun to do some "
Historians looking back at events"
summaries with predictable distortions.

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