Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Nathaniel Mason]

You can suggest the placement of Lord Blackwood with Lord Tully and a marriage to Lord Bracken's daughter all you like, Septon...

But if you think the Blacks are going to agree to the suggestion of a Green House (Dulver) to place their Black Lord with another Green House and marry him to a third Green House who is twelve years his senior AND their most hated enemy... well... all I can say is good luck with that.

I will go vacation in the Arbor till the dust settles and the blood dries.

[Septon Arlyn]

"
While not Ideal, political marriages like that have ben made before, Althought mostly its the other way around (a 12 year age gap is big, but when you look at the grand scheme, its not unattainable.) Lord Benji will be marrying her at 16, possibly earlier, making Lady Kerry 28, which is old (for westeros), but still young enough to bear children.

[url:1qb9hk50]http:
//awoiaf.
westeros.
org/index.
php/Customs[/url:1qb9hk50]

[Septon Arlyn]

“ We've had a hundred peaces with the Brackens, many sealed with marriages. There's Blackwood blood in every Bracken, and Bracken blood in every Blackwood. The Old King's Peace lasted half a century. But then some fresh quarrel broke out, and the old wounds opened and began to bleed again. That's how it always happens, my father says. So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it.[5] ”
- Hoster Blackwood to Jaime Lannister


from the ASOIF wiki

as much as the blacks might squeel and squelch, on this history is on the Septons side :;
): So if it is peace that we are after here. It had best be sealed with marriage.

[url:2x7gug7c]http:
//awoiaf.
westeros.
org/index.
php/House_Blackwood[/url:2x7gug7c]

[Nathaniel Mason]

Perhaps....

Septon. I do give you credit for having huge brass balls.

There are some Black Lords in Westeros that would have you assassinated for merely making the suggestion.

There is copious amounts of history for that too.

[Terren Dulver]

Which is why we are also thinking about possible alternatives for Lord Tully. I would prefer not having a member of house Dulver on the assassination list.

[Septon Arlyn]

Perhaps....

Septon. I do give you credit for having huge brass balls.

There are some Black Lords in Westeros that would have you assassinated for merely making the suggestion.

There is copious amounts of history for that too.

True... but If i remember correctly someone once asked me if i wanted peace or justice.

I told them I chose peace

[Ereth Redwain]

I'm sure the septon has already gained some enemies he is unaware off.

History is the otherway around, unless you have a case of a younger boy marrying and elder woman 12 years her senior no less.

Add to it the time period of Green vs. Blacks

Add the centuries of hate between both Houses

Yeah, you can talk all you want, I see like 5% chance of you making it happen.

If it's just Banji for the sake of making him to not hate so much and be a "
guest"
with another Black House until he is 15 and able to rule I suppose. I can see this as a more plausible argument.

House Redwain is neutral place for now :;
): if you want to consider it lol

[Septon Arlyn]

Perhaps....

Septon. I do give you credit for having huge brass balls.

There are some Black Lords in Westeros that would have you assassinated for merely making the suggestion.

There is copious amounts of history for that too.

I'm pretty sure that my list of enemies is pretty long, yet the good septon is IC oblivious to them... maybe I should take the supreme arrogance flaw, only instead of it being based off arrogance have it be based off being naive


while there is no precedence (that i am aware of) for the boy being the younger one in the relationship, I do not see how that is a negative in the blacks eyes, as it would have a women be the more knowledgeable and experienced one in the relationship

it even states from martin that women have been married before the age of majority for political situations, so why should boy's be held to a diffrenet standard. I thought we were going for equality and all that jazz
if anything it should be a black house making the proposal



that link is here
[url:1lbtr7v4]http:
//www.
westeros.
org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1050/[/url:1lbtr7v4]

[Nathaniel Mason]

House Redwain is neutral place for now :;
): if you want to consider it lol

Nice try. Thumbs up for effort.

Based on past history, Benjicot would most likely go squire for Lord Marsten till he came of age.

Strong family ties. Was already Ben's page. No obvious political issues.

There is precedent for that. Beric Dondarrion's squire was Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall.

(Is it a precedent if it happens 150 years in the future? Heh. There are other examples.)

[Septon Arlyn]

Besides, A green speton being murdered by a black lord for suggesting a black way of thinking to bring peace to a green and black house might just be the most poetic thing to have happened. I would be satisfied with that character arc and would enjoy rolling up a new character.

I've wanted to try out the massive quality for a while now. I'm thinking a massive pike wielding man with a shield tower shield would be and good riding and tournament knight quality could be fun

[Ereth Redwain]

Yes, Benji can resume his place with the Marsten too and be perfectly plausible if not natural option.

Can't blame me for trying

[Septon Arlyn]

House Redwain is neutral place for now :;
): if you want to consider it lol

Nice try. Thumbs up for effort.

Based on past history, Benjicot would most likely go squire for Lord Marsten till he came of age.

Strong family ties. Was already Ben's page. No obvious political issues.

There is precedent for that. Beric Dondarrion's squire was Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall.

(Is it a precedent if it happens 150 years in the future? Heh. There are other examples.)

While I would not be apposed to that, there might be some who would be saying that house Marsten would be using the authority given to them by the king inappropriately if they were to benefit from the peace treaty.That is why I made the suggestion of the starks in winterfell. However, not that I think about it, the manderlies might not be a half bad option either, as that would make them a banner house of the old gods while keeping the seven themselves as concessions to both the blackwoods and the brackens.

[Theomore Tullison]

16 is kinda seen as the legal age and while marriages can happen before that..consummation should wait...but then again customs tends to assume that groom is older than the bride, but Kerry will be a Christmas Cake before Benji can reasonably make her with child even so. But to have Benji foster here or there is actually a less important question than who is to be his regent, if Ser Myles remains so, then adding him fostering somewhere to the treaty is basically a political decision of grooming him to be a fanboy of one side or the other. Same problem arises by installing another regent than Ser Myles, so that's probably an anthill we don't want to poke around in.

Theomorian positions:

The simple ones:
Septry, if House Lucas ransoms him, earmark that to go to the restoration of the septry, and it should not pass through Bracken hands.
Salted Fields: Property damage should warrant reparations, see note on Tyron, however.
False Flag: Military operation from a six year old? An apology should suffice.
Blacbuckle: The maester pays the prize, recognize Ser Myles promise to contribute to the restoration in a way that will make him look bad if he goes back on those words.

The tricky ones:
Raventree, needs further investigation, the map and training grounds are damning..and this sort of thing is centuries worth of hate-fuel. It's the Brackens and Blackwoods that perpetuate the feud, it's their stories that gets repeated over and over, everything else that happened will be forgotten in a few generations, this one? No. I'd be inclined to send Haig to the wall for not actively rooting out whoever was responsible for that himself. Justified in part due to robbing Raventree of it's leadership in such a fashion can only be truly answered with doing the same to Stone Hedge. Lord Haig can probably be held accountable for about half of the king's peace being broken, the one that we could have held accountable for the other half is dead.

Borderlands and Iron Mines, Brackens caused the damage, so a larger share of the repairs should be levied upon them in both cases, seeing that sending repairs both ways is rather silly, it may be prudent to rule that Salted Fields and mine repair reparations cancels each other out, depending on damage dealt . Also, See note on Tyron.

Pennytree, that the Brackens carried out a second attack in a deliberate attempt to shift blame should carry some serious repercussions, given the opinion regarding the assassination, I'm even more inclined to send Haig up to freeze his balls off. Mayhaps some wrist-slapping by wrangling responsibility of protecting the place to the Blackwoods, depending on the legal status of the area which is unclear to me OOC. The Brackens are clearly unsuitable to protect it at any rate. If it is already Blackwood territory, then this might call to reparations. The treaty should not mention Dornish Caravans as that might risk upsetting the delicate relations between the crown and Dorne.

Note on Tyron: The trick here is that if we send him to the wall, it can be construed as it being his guilt, and not the fault of House Blackwood, thus strongly lessening Blackwood responsibility. A compromise might be to allow the Blackwoods to ransom him from suffering such a fate, and the ransom being earmarked to rectify the damages of his actions.

In general, Theomore will argue that any individual we find guilty of one thing or the other should be allowed to take the black instead of suffering whatever punishment we decide upon. And that all executions should be by rope or headsman, simple and clean. And taking the black is basically an alternative to the prescribed punishment, not the punishment in and of itself.

[Terren Dulver]

I disagree with your first premise. The primary reason for making him a ward is not really about green <
=>
black (although in Dragon's dance it always is a factor), it is to ensure he doesn't start developing negative emotions towards the Brackens, like most of house Blackwood. Although I do agree that we shouldn't push our luck by appointing another regent, we have (nearly) nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

[Ereth Redwain]

If House Blackwood cannot be blamed by his Maester, Pennytree should be seen the same way. a unit of men turned rogue should face the execution block or the wall, plus some reparation of some kind by House Bracken.

Borderlands is both Houses.

Blackwoods using Darry's lands to stage attacks thus being the initiators of the problem, and Bracken troops for pursuing to far and causing damage. Yet I see the Blackwoods as baring more responsibility than the Bracken. It's like a friend of yours in your backyard decides to throw rocks at a bee's nest and you getting stung by them and blaming the bee's for reacting to an attack on their nest. I would also pursue after getting attack once or twice into Darry's lands if the attack is coming from there violating the engagement area, which is something the Blackwood's have done to gain a advantage in their war against the Bracken's.

Salted and Iron Mines is not comparable I think, it will take far longer to fix the damage of the fields than the mines and those still don't recover 100% for years. While the mines can be fixed within a year or less with the aid of House Tullison and Redwain, and the reparations of House Bracken, so I think it's a bigger pay for the Brackens for the fields than the mines.

[Nathaniel Mason]

OOC: If you want Peace, and if you expect reparations, sending Ser Tyron to the Wall would be a huge problem. Does what Tryon did rise to the level of a Wall crime during a time of war? (Is there ever not a time of war between these two Houses?)

Very very OOC: Personally, Nathan would be happy to send Lord Haig Bracken to freeze his balls off at the Wall, but the Greens would be rabidly against losing a warrior and commander of his caliber with the threat of war looming in the coming years. Nathan has been working to try and neuter the man in another way, by getting him appointed to the Kingsguard. That way, Lordship passes to his son, the future damage he can do is severely curtailed, and he still is available and has value to the Greens should war break out.

[Septon Arlyn]

That is where convincing him to go to the wall comes in. If it is his own choice to go to the wall, then we would not be using that as a punishment in the treaty. Otherwise yes, keeping him with the Blackwood's world bring peace

[Ereth Redwain]

Another way is for Lord Ereth to "
hire him"
as a retainer and "
remove him"
from the conflict area. As long as he is there he will start fighting sooner or later.

[Yoren longshore]

Well... As servers of the kings justice, no house has to get on board with it, unless they would be willing to take issue with disputing the edict from the king. We are acting with the kings authority here, and as such our suggestions will be made law.

Well, the dillema is that we have no idea how much authority we are installed with. We might not even have the power to judge a Lucas...

Several bandits/impoverished peasants: indict them for their actions or give them new farms where they can work? Send them away or reposition them close?

I never got any clarity in response to my earlier question. Who are these bandits and peasants, and what are they guilty of? I don't know what you're referring to.

Sorry, I had not seen your question.
I was just generally talking of the different subgroups not noteworthy by name. Like the bandits that blew up the inn. The bandits attacking Arlyn. The peasants stirring trouble on the D6 event. It was a general thing.


As for marrying Kerry and Benji: It would be a temporary solution. They would not be able to have children, but it would buy us some 10 years of having Kerry in Blackwood camp as a hostage

[Theomore Tullison]

I disagree with your first premise. The primary reason for making him a ward is not really about green <
=>
black (although in Dragon's dance it always is a factor), it is to ensure he doesn't start developing negative emotions towards the Brackens, like most of house Blackwood. Although I do agree that we shouldn't push our luck by appointing another regent, we have (nearly) nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

With such a motivation, I would leave it largely to Ser Myles to determine where the boy should go. Marsten would be the more obvious candidate among PC houses, then Coldbrook followed by Tullison. Outside the Riverlands, we have Royce and Stark, but we don't have time to send a Raven there and back, so that would require a stipulation of the sort that "
Benji is to foster with a lord of house Blackwood's choosing and the approval of the undersigned houses"
. But this will be viewed as additional punishment of the Blackwoods, though it could mitigate the impact of sending Haig to the wall or exile or whatever if we go with a clean out the wound by removing the things that made it fester approach. Or come in place of other sort of punishment.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

That is a good Idea, However historically the peace only lasted for that amount of time if there was a marriage involved. I think that to seal the deal we need to marry Lord Benjicot to Lady Kerry and move both of them from house blackwoods and Brackens lands. If Ser Tyron is not convinced to take the Black to pay for his mistakes and simply reparations are made, I fear that he will poison Benicot against the Brackens, and we might lose our chance here. I've tried to initiate an Intrigue with him, convincing him to take the black and save his families honor, but He will simply quit against me, as I am too green for his liking. Maybe someone of a blacker persuasion might be able to convince him to do it, for the good of his family.

Terren has IC suggested Lord Tully to be a place to send lord Benjicot, I'm in favor of sending both him and lady kerry there, away from their families, to be married once Benjicot reaches the age of majority. The other option is to send both Lord Benjicot and Lady Kerry to live with the starks. They are lord paramount as well and as far as I can tell not leaning green or black. They Also worship the old gods, which is a concession to the blackwoods.

Not going to happen. Corrine will either stop that madness or die trying. I'm serious.

[Ereth Redwain]

That is a good Idea, However historically the peace only lasted for that amount of time if there was a marriage involved. I think that to seal the deal we need to marry Lord Benjicot to Lady Kerry and move both of them from house blackwoods and Brackens lands. If Ser Tyron is not convinced to take the Black to pay for his mistakes and simply reparations are made, I fear that he will poison Benicot against the Brackens, and we might lose our chance here. I've tried to initiate an Intrigue with him, convincing him to take the black and save his families honor, but He will simply quit against me, as I am too green for his liking. Maybe someone of a blacker persuasion might be able to convince him to do it, for the good of his family.

Terren has IC suggested Lord Tully to be a place to send lord Benjicot, I'm in favor of sending both him and lady kerry there, away from their families, to be married once Benjicot reaches the age of majority. The other option is to send both Lord Benjicot and Lady Kerry to live with the starks. They are lord paramount as well and as far as I can tell not leaning green or black. They Also worship the old gods, which is a concession to the blackwoods.

Not going to happen. Corrine will either stop that madness or die trying. I'm serious.

I think most of us think the best option is for Benji to go back to the Marsten's until he is 16 so perhaps he won't be so inclined to continue the hate and feud having others help mold and raise him better than that. Not to mention auntie Sofia will be there.

Of course House Redwain could take him in lol.

[Baelon Drakeson]

I'm opposed to removing Benji from House Blackwood at all, whether to Marsten, Stark, or hell, even Drakeson custody. No, the solution isn't to remove him from House Blackwood, it is to remove the most hate-filled.

I think we should require one from each house to take the Black, as symbolic penitence more than an explicit recognition of individual guilt. From House Blackwood, Ser Tyron is the obvious candidate;
I could see offering Lord Haig a choice - either volunteer to go himself or send his son.

Finally, Kerry Bracken shall be married, but not to Lord Benjicot. Rather, she should wed Ser Myles. I have it on good word (from a Bracken no less) that he is a good and trustworthy man. Together, they should be able to raise Lord Benjicot to be a just and honorable man.

[Theomore Tullison]

Do we have anything on Ser Wyll to make black for him an option?

[Ereth Redwain]

I don't believe so, he would be about the only Bracken that can walk without damage lol.

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