Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Nathaniel Mason]

Of course House Redwain could take him in lol.

Love a man with perseverance.

I think we should require one from each house to take the Black, as symbolic penitence more than an explicit recognition of individual guilt. From House Blackwood, Ser Tyron is the obvious candidate;
I could see offering Lord Haig a choice - either volunteer to go himself or send his son.

This could work very well. If the other was Ser Steffon, it would neatly sidestep a number of political problems. I honestly think trying to unseat Lord Bracken by forcing him to the Wall will either fail, or cause substantially more problems.

Do we have anything on Ser Wyll to make black for him an option?

As far as I can see... Ser Wyll is the only one blameless in all of this. Trying to send him to the Wall would not only be a political nightmare, it would be grievously unjust.

Finally, Kerry Bracken shall be married, but not to Lord Benjicot. Rather, she should wed Ser Myles. I have it on good word (from a Bracken no less) that he is a good and trustworthy man. Together, they should be able to raise Lord Benjicot to be a just and honorable man.

I can confirm that Ser Myles, while ambitious and strongly loyal to the Blackwoods, is an honorable and thoughtful man. This is not a bad idea at all.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Hmmm. The idea of sending Steffon Vance to the Wall is attractive. As much as Corrine wants his head for what he's done, getting him into black may be more achievable.

[Loreia]

Several bandits/impoverished peasants: indict them for their actions or give them new farms where they can work? Send them away or reposition them close?

I never got any clarity in response to my earlier question. Who are these bandits and peasants, and what are they guilty of? I don't know what you're referring to.

Sorry, I had not seen your question.
I was just generally talking of the different subgroups not noteworthy by name. Like the bandits that blew up the inn. The bandits attacking Arlyn. The peasants stirring trouble on the D6 event. It was a general thing.

In which case, death to the bandits, no ceremony of any kind. The peasants may return to their homes.

Kerry Bracken x Myles Blackwood. Absolutely, if we can convince them. They don't have to like each other...

[Septon Arlyn]

I am OK with the Kerry and Ser Myles, however it does not send as strong of a message that uniting the houses is the goal

Wards and such are very common as part of the peace process on westeros, heck, Theron was the only son left and he was sent with the Starks to ensure that his father would not try another rebellion.

I would prefer for benjicot to stay and Ser Tyron to go to the wall. But the consensus was that if we wanted peace we could not send Ser Tyron to the wall, thus our search for secondary ways to keep Lord benjicot from being poisoned by his kin (if we can not remove the rot from the family tree house blackwood, let's at least trim the good branches and transplant him to another tree)

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

The fact that he's Lord (even if too young to really take the reins yet) really complicates things in that matter. A lot.

You can't just ward him out like some second son. It won't be too many years before he won't need a regent anymore.

[Yoren longshore]

I'm enjoying a few days of visiting the family and so much happens... Seriously guys: I love it.

I updated the first thread to represent views on where Benjicot should go and there was several with hardened stances. I've tried to show all positions equally, but I'd like everybody to check if they think I've quoted them unfairly.

On all the discussions I would love to see the lords/ladies express themselves clearly. Lord Davain Bartheld and Lord Daveth Clodbrook in particular needs to state their opinions, as theirs really matter. As they have stayed neutral their position will in many cases determine who "
wins"
the vote. First then can we move onwards to discuss where to send Blackwood or where to send Haigh, depending on which side wins.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

It was my understanding that Tyron was going to be suggested for the Wall, but even if not, he won't be escaping punishment, so I wouldn't worry about him being near Benjicot.

As for this 'uniting the houses' thing, it's not the panacea that some think it is. Blackwoods &
Brackens have intermarried many times. It has not held lasting peace. It's not a new, innovative idea for them, and it will not actually help in the long term. Those houses will never stop fighting for any significant length of time. The only way they would stop is if one house wiped out the other. Making them marry into eachother will only make the individuals suffer more when the next spark ignites their ancient feud. They've fought eachother for over five thousand years. Another wedding isn't going to fix anything.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Not long term, no. But it might help with the immediate tensions...which could very well last our lifetimes or more.

Something along these lines is worth considering, but care must be given to the specific matches made.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

My point was that the Dulvers are acting, naïvely, as though intermarrying the houses will fix millenia of fighting.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

It won't fix everything, you're right. But buying a few decades of peace isn't without merit...and it's probably all we can expect to accomplish.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I think a decade is very optimistic. I am not even sure our attempts to bring peace will last a year.

[Terren Dulver]

We aren't saying marriage will suddenly end all fighting ever, since marriage between the two houses has happened before, it will simply lengthen the peace from a few months to a few years. Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument sounds a lot like, "
It doesn't solve the problem entirely so it isn't worth doing it at all."

[Ser Jorah Holt]

to be fair, you wanted to send them to Lord Tully who's history with a lot of our characters is not great, which you weren't likely to know. That is what caused a lot of the reaction as well

[Terren Dulver]

It was primarily about making Lord Blackwood a ward and Lord Tully was just the first lord that came to mind.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

sadly, I can't see it working as he is already a lord. More likely to cause problems

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Yeah, under the circumstances, making Lord Blackwood someone else's ward probably isn't going to happen. Even putting it forward could be considered inflamatory, I feel.

There may be variations on the plan we can examine, but that particular one I don't see flying.

[Terren Dulver]

Then let's just hope the other measures are enough.

[Yoren longshore]

Well, he is not ruling anything yet, so that should not stop anybody. When he comes of age and gets responsibilities, then that is an entirely different thing...
Sweetrobin is sent to be taught martial abilities by John Royce, though he is the lord of the Erye.
You can also find several examples in real world history, but that is of course a different universe.

[Septon Arlyn]

Is it the terminology of ward that raises hackles? As Yoren says there are examples in the real world as well as game of thrones were Lord's who were not yet of age being fostered out.

And as Lady Corinne points out that simply marriages don't necessarily stop the fued's.

What I would like to see is Ser Wyl and benjicot going someplace far away so that they can develop a friendship and not be poisoned by the people of their house.

[Ser Walton Dulver]

to be honest I actually don't see IC the reason why we all have right to interfere into such delicate things like we do. Royal investigators were sent to judge and force peace. We are judging and yes- we forced peace by causing bigger bloodshed over there, than few generations of Blackwood-Bracken fights. but things like 'should Lord Benjicot be sent somewhere to be ward or should someone marry anyone'- it's not our business, and to be honest: Blackwoods and Brackens have any right to tell us to fuck off and mind our own business yes, king or liege can arrange wedding, but i guess we are pretty far from that happening. and also it was mentioned that son of Blackwoods should marry daughter of Brackens... come on, Brackens assasinated Lord Blackwood in his own chambers (i'm not sure did we proved that, but ask any Blackwood about the case :;
): )- is there any lower way of dealing such a thing, if we are talking about lord of Blackwoods caliber? I believe that any way of burying the hatchet sailed away long time ago i think the only way to force peace is to kick their asses strongly enough military and financially that they won't be able to fight for a while...'

most of what we deal with in Story 2, are incidents and uncleared stuff- Brackens and Blackwoods don't fight openly, so I guess that it will happen all the time, i mean incidents and 'bandits' stuff. there is no way to stop that, it has escalated too far. both sides are trying to destroy each other, they don't fight for anything- they fight because they don't like neighbour. so we can create strip of no man's land between Brackens and Blackwoods or we can turn our back and leave after Story 2. They will live their own lifes without us :p

[Nathaniel Mason]

Well.... and keep in mind, I do not put this forward as in any way a good idea... Benjicot could become a Ward of House Bracken, and Ser Wyll could become a Ward of House Blackwood.

As an exchange of political hostages, it would pretty well guarantee peace between the two Houses. Neither House would do anything to jeopardize the lives of their respective Heirs.

The deal would have to dissolve the moment one or the other was installed as the ruling Lord. (Either Benjicot reaches the age of majority or Lord Bracken is not longer Lord.) Still, you might get a good ten years of peace out of it.

A horrible idea given we might be in the midst of a civil war very soon... but as none of us can predict the future...

Forced Warding to a third party House has no precedent that I am aware of. Hostage Wardings to guarantee good conduct was always with the opposing side (such as Theon Greyjoy). In every other case (Loras, Jaime, Robyn) those Wardings were voluntary and looked upon more as fostering or squire. They were not Warded to guarantee the good conduct of their respective Houses.

[Theomore Tullison]

Ward is a nice word for hostage, yes, but it's actual meaning is that someone else takes responsibility for you. Though one would generally say fostered when it isn't forced.

Ned and Bob were wards of Jon Arryn for example, Bob being lord of storm's end at the time, though Ser Courtnay Penrose were his regent as I recall. So it's not unheard of. And it's customary for the sons and daughters of lords to grow up with other houses, doesn't happen all the time, no. But most of the time, yes.

However, the bigger item we're discussing is forcing Benji to be fostered away from home, that is punishment not doled out lightly. If we exile/execute (alternatively have him take the black) Lord Haig, then such a measure is fitting for balance, otherwise, I don't really see a justification. If Benji becomes ward, then I don't see us agreeing on someplace else than Marsten, which may or may not factor into some people's decisions to go for that solution.

[Septon Arlyn]

Well... A little birdy told me that Lord Haig may have hired some troops to cover up for his men's attacks against a dornish caravan. If we can connect him to the assassination as well that might be the leverage we need to force Lord Haig to take the black

[Ser Walton Dulver]

we are presuming that everybody in Brackens and Blackwoods houses are willing to accept young and weak children as lords of their Houses. wouldn't it be easier way of getting lordship by heirs of Lord Benjicot than making him die? and wouldn;
t it be greater if the one who kills him would be the ones who Blackwoods hate most?

I also don't see the reason why Benjicot should be sent to Marstens. they were acceptable place to raise him, but times have changed. I'm afraid that in this situation Marstens or any of our PC Houses has enough reputation in world to ward someone with Status of Lord Blackwood. his value is much higher now than it was before.

Even if i don't actually agree with sending boys anywhere, I guess that both young Blackwood and Bracken should be send to Tullies and I'm actually very surprised that Lord Tully didn't demand that in current situation. he should raise both boys and keep them as honorary hostages to be sure that they will be groomed, treated properly, and that everything will be done to secure the peace in Tullies vassal lands...

[Theomore Tullison]

The surprise is actually that it is us, not Lord Tully, that got appointed to settle the matter.

If the king found us to be of high enough station to pass judgement on Bracken and Blackwood, then that implies that he has found us to be of high enough station to foster Lord Benji. So we can send him to Heartshorn if we so decide.

(Both Theomorian quotes if we are having a corresponding IC debate on it that we probably won't play out.)

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