Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Reader]

1. What proportion of the mine penalty should be paid by House Blackwood?

Equal to House Bracken (1 mine each)

2. How should the mine penalties in the previous question be used?

Give it to the Crown

House Kytley and House Tullison vote in line with House Marsten on these topics.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I feel all warm &
fuzzy.

[Reader]

I feel all warm &
fuzzy.

That way you'll never expect the knife?

Marstens have done a solid job and Kytley and Tullisons are both black, therefore willing to toe the line even if there are small differences on certain topics.

Bigger political picture matters more: they have an interest in following your authority!

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

It was more that other PCs were supportive. I know Dunstan only grudgingly agrees. :;
):

[Reader]

It was more that other PCs were supportive. I know Dunstan only grudgingly agrees. :;
):

No awareness checks necessary.

[Baelon Drakeson]

May I have an order list for things to still be voted on IC in the treaty thread? I want to be efficient. If desired, I could write a cover-all post for the stuff we've done polls on, like a bit of exposition.

I think everything has been covered OOC or IC except for two things:
1) the duration of Ser Tyron's exile (as the winning vote lists two options)
2) what, specifically, Olyvar Lucas' punishment should be.

The options for Tyron's exile seem to be 10-15 years or Life. As Reader indicated, I know Daveth has something to talk about on that matter.
As for Olyvar, I like the poetic justice punishment that I came up with, but I seem to recall that others were less than satisfied with it.

Here is a quick summary of all OOC voting with conclusive results, much of it is stuff that was in the draft presented IC, things that would in theory have to have been discussed specifically are in italics and are bulleted. What sort of edit to that draft the vote represents is in brackets.

• Require a member of both houses to take the black? No [punishment clause to be struck from the original draft][/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• What to do with Tyron Blackwood? Exile [rewrite of existing punishment]
  Should Haig pay for his men robbing the caravan? Parts of it, he should keep his men on a tighter leash/Yes [edit covered by later vote]
  Should the Blackwoods pay for the salted fields? Yes[edit covered by later vote]
  Should we go after Olyver Lucas? Yes [Edit TBD, or none]
  25% of House Fortune income must be for Lands, Population, or Wealth (only if earmarked for the relevant holdings) Yes [no change]
  Half income must either be used on law or on rebuilding constructive buildings Yes [no change]
  Punishment for Steffon Vance Kill him [no change]
  Punishment Maester Arran Kill him/Strip him of his chains in addition to the rest. [no change][/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Reparations for the salted fields/Pennytree attacks are to be included in the 25% of income clause? Yes [statement added to existing clause][/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Manner of Ser Steffon Vance's execution? Beheading [edit to existing punishment][/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Manner of Maester Arran's execution? Beheading [edit to existing punishment][/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Scope of Ser Tyron's exile? From Westeros (to Essos, to serve the Crown's interests there). [edit to existing punishment] (can we specify where he is exiled to, or just from? Maybe Daveth has an answer?)
  Duration of Ser Tyron's exile? Preferably life, but would settle for more than 15 years. [edit covered by previous item] (ambiguous)[/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Option for Ser Tyron to take the Black to keep his son in Blackwood custody? Yes, with the caveat that he be watched for troublemaking or ill influence.[edit to existing punishment][/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Punishment for Ser Humphrey? Beheading [new punishment clause to be added][/*1p7fz7wq]

Still being voted on(Marsten, Kytley, and Tullison have voted, Bartheld, Coldbrook, Dulver, Longshore pending):

1. What proportion of the mine penalty to should be paid by House Blackwood? (should include all possible combinations of the 1 Bracken and 4 Blackwood mines)

• None (no mine penalties to either house) [/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• None (1 Bracken mine, 0 Blackwood)[/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Equal to House Bracken (1 mine each) [Leading at 3/3 votes][/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Twice as much as House Bracken (1 Bracken mine, 2 Blackwood)[/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Three times as much as House Bracken (1 Bracken mine, 3 Blackwood)[/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Four times as much as House Bracken (1 Bracken mine, 4 Blackwood) [/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• All of it (0 Bracken mines, 1-4 Blackwood mines, TBD after if needed)[/*1p7fz7wq]

2. How should the mine penalties in the previous question be used? (multiple options acceptable, proportions can be discussed after if needed)

• Give it to the crown [Leading at 3/3 votes][/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Repay the investigating houses the money they spent rebuilding &
  preventing the uprising, the remainder to go to the crown[/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Split the revenues among the investigating houses (letting them profit)[/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Rebuilding the region[/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Let House Bracken and House Blackwood keep it[/*1p7fz7wq]
  
• Other[/*1p7fz7wq]

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Thanks for your help, Baelon.

So, shall I exposit the discussion &
voting on the decided stuff, and go to opening discussion &
voting on Tyron's exile?

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Okay. Since it's been mentioned, to make clear exactly what it is I have, I was looking for precedents for exile for Ser Tyron under these circumstances, since it could seem to be a little heavy handed.

This is what I found:

Clear evidence that would satisfy ironrod himself. You unearth the case of Ser Colm Blackwood, an honourable man who had slain many Brackens in King Maegor's reign in fighting against the Faith Militant. Most records were expunged in the shame of Maegor's reign, but you manage to piece together the records. In particular, the case weighs on long term damage to the land's ability to pay its dues to lords and the king - effectively arguing it is a crime against the crown by limiting its taxes. Ser Colm's lengthy exile was justified given the time required for the land to recover.

Note: lengthy, not lifelong. Daveth would support 10-15 years. Long enough for Lord Benjicot to solidify his position. If he still wants Ser Tyron gone after that, he'll be able to find an assignment to put him on after that if he wishes. I wasn't told about if we can send him *to* somewhere, but that's likely to have come up at *some* point in my research. Reader?

1. What proportion of the mine penalty to should be paid by House Blackwood?

Equal to House Bracken (1 mine each)

2. How should the mine penalties in the previous question be used?

Give it to the crown

[Baelon Drakeson]

1. What proportion of the mine penalty to should be paid by House Blackwood?

Equal to House Bracken (1 mine each)

2. How should the mine penalties in the previous question be used?

Give it to the crown

And with that, those options have hit the 4/7 mark and are officially selected.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Corrine would support 15 years exile gladly.

[Septon Arlyn]

The Septon would as well

[Reader]

10-15y exile then seem likely, given Daveth, Corrine, Septon and Kytley support.

Daveth has 3 dos on his research, so he uncovers precedent for where the exiled character is sent too (and to in this case too, rofl).

[Kevan Lyras]

Great! This leaves only one topic to be decided:

2) what, specifically, Olyvar Lucas' punishment should be

So far we have one suggestion by Baelon:

Ser Olyvar Lucas shall serve as Warden of the Sept at Battle Valley for a period of no less than three years, living among the Brothers and receiving no incomes for his service. Any incomes earned by other means shall be donated to the Sept at Battle Valley to be used as alms for the unfortunate.

Is there somebody against this? If so, please post an alternative option and we can get to voting.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

considering other options, he organised a bandit attack on the septry - maybe he should be executed like Ser Humphrey

[Septon Arlyn]

Or we could add on top of the original punishment a Ransom, as per the warfare rules, with the funds to go to rebuilding the Sept or else he be executed for crimes against the gods.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

well, we were looking for funds to rebuild the septry

[Baelon Drakeson]

Well, he organized the bandits, but he did not order or condone the attack on the sept.

[Yoren longshore]

Or we could add on top of the original punishment a Ransom, as per the warfare rules, with the funds to go to rebuilding the Sept or else he be executed for crimes against the gods.

I'd support this.
Though I'd also like to add that he wouldn't be buried until payment arrived, even after his death.

[Theomore Tullison]

Theo still would advocate that precedent or not, the Brackens are just as guilty regarding Darry lands, and his position is that one is a more serious charge than the salting of fields. Not going as far as exiling Lord Haig, no. Fining the Brackens for the damages to House Darry could work as a compromise.

He would also suggest that Olyvar, acting on his own with no relations with the Blackwoods, could be handed over to Lord Haig for trial like a common (if knighted and noble) criminal, though we could allow him to take the black instead.

[Septon Arlyn]

Well, he organized the bandits, but he did not order or condone the attack on the sept.

No he kinda did, that is why he got them the Blackwood's shields and tried to frame house daleford

[Baelon Drakeson]

Well, he organized the bandits, but he did not order or condone the attack on the sept.

No he kinda did, that is why he got them the Blackwood's shields and tried to frame house daleford

I believe that was to cover their activities in general, not specific to the Septry attack.

To be clear, I'm not saying he shouldn't be punished, just not for "
crimes against the gods"
. The Sept attack was a result of his actions, but not an intended one.

He would also suggest that Olyvar, acting on his own with no relations with the Blackwoods, could be handed over to Lord Haig for trial like a common (if knighted and noble) criminal, though we could allow him to take the black instead.

It was already voted on that we would "
go after"
Olyvar, so turning him over to Lord Haig doesn't really work.

Taking the black, maybe - though he may not have intended his bandits to attack the sept, he did intend for them to attack someone to gain the funds he wanted, and he was willing to let House Blackwood or House Daleford take the fall for it.

[Theomore Tullison]

Well, banditry is still banditry, sept or no sept, no?

[Baelon Drakeson]

Well, banditry is still banditry, sept or no sept, no?

Quite so, which is the point I was trying to make in my response to you. However, I do not find it appropriate to punish him for "
crimes against the gods"
as the Septon suggested.
In short, a noble sponsoring bandits is a far cry from ordering an attack on a septry, and should not be punished as such.

Sending him to the wall, or my poetic justice punched up with a hefty fine, sure. Death? no.
I felt that was excessive for Ser Humphrey, and he actually participated. Ser Olyvar did not.

I'm feeling shades of Arnaud Amalric with some of our judgements...


EDIT: Oh, Corrine, we should also discuss any non-punishment peace treaty items, such as having Ser Myles and Lady Kerry wed, and anything else that we want to do to promote peace.

[Yoren longshore]

We have still left to kill a city... Even if we kill all people here I doubt we'd reach the right amount. Remember who the first to attack were :;
):

[Kevan Lyras]

This treaty is like a Hydra, whenever we seem to be able to move on from one discussion topic, two more arise :?

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