Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

1. Reparations for the salted fields/Pennytree attacks are to be included in the 25% of income clause? Yes
2. Manner of Ser Steffon Vance's execution? Beheading
3. Manner of Maester Arran's execution? Beheading
4. Scope of Ser Tyron's exile? From Westeros (to Essos, to serve the Crown's interests there).
5. Duration of Ser Tyron's exile? Preferably life, but would settle for more than 15 years.
6. Option for Ser Tyron to take the Black to keep his son in Blackwood custody? Yes, with the caveat that he be watched for troublemaking or ill influence.
7. Punishment for Ser Humphrey? Beheading

[Septon Arlyn]

1. Reparations for the salted fields/Pennytree attacks are to be included in the 25% of income clause? Yes
2. Manner of Ser Steffon Vance's execution? Beheading
3. Manner of Maester Arran's execution? Beheading
4. Scope of Ser Tyron's exile? From Westeros (to Essos, to serve the Crown's interests there).
5. Duration of Ser Tyron's exile? Preferably life, but would settle for more than 15 years.
6. Option for Ser Tyron to take the Black to keep his son in Blackwood custody? Yes, with the caveat that he be watched for troublemaking or ill influence.
7. Punishment for Ser Humphrey? Beheading

this is house dulvers vote as well

[Davain Bartheld]

1. Reparations for the salted fields/Pennytree attacks are to be included in the 25% of income clause? Yes
2. Manner of Ser Steffon Vance's execution? Beheading
3. Manner of Maester Arran's execution? Beheading
4. Scope of Ser Tyron's exile? From Westeros (to Essos, to serve the Crown's interests there).
5. Duration of Ser Tyron's exile? Preferably life, but would settle for more than 15 years.
6. Option for Ser Tyron to take the Black to keep his son in Blackwood custody? Yes, with the caveat that he be watched for troublemaking or ill influence.
7. Punishment for Ser Humphrey? Beheading

this is house dulvers vote as well

Same for Barthelf as well.

[Yoren longshore]

I note some changes that were not voted on, so I have done up a new draft that reflects the changes [url=actually approved][/url] in language consistent with the original. Issues that still need to be addressed are in curly brackets (to distinguish from mechanics in square brackets) and will be listed out after. Additionally, I cleaned up some sloppy language from my previous draft regarding the role Ser Tyron and Ser Humphrey played in their respective acts, added the clause about ownership of the mines (I've assumed that was not controversial, as no one has argued for a change), and other such minor details that don't change the guilt or punishments (except, as noted, those approved by vote).

If I missed anything, let me know please.

We the undersigned, acting upon the authority granted unto our represented houses by His Grace, King Viserys Targaryen, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Protector of the Realm, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Defender of the Realm, do hereby declare that the following is a true and accurate accounting of crimes committed by Houses Bracken and Blackwood, and a fair and just punishment to be meted out for the same.

I. Crimes

Let it be known that these crimes were investigated by representatives of the houses of Marsten, Bartheld, Coldbrook, Dulver, Kytley, Longshore, and Tullison:

Ser Steffon Vance and Ser Rufus Bracken, with the aid of various lesser men, did without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors plot and execute the assassination of Lord Bryan Blackwood and his wife, the Lady Reina.

Maester Arran of House Blackwood, without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of his superiors, did poison the well of the village of Blackbuckle, ending countless innocent lives as well as the lives of various Bracken soldiers and torturers, for the purpose of ending the suffering of Blackwood soldiers held captive and tormented there.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did fortify their respective iron mines. Upon attack by House Bracken, soldiers of House Blackwood did fire the supports of the Blackwood mines in an attempt to render the Bracken attack profitless. These acts depriving the crown of vital resources for the war in the Stepstones.

House Bracken soldiers, under the command of Ser Humphrey Piper, acting dishonorably without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors, did attack a [Dornish?] merchant caravan for the purpose of personal profit.

Ser Tyron Blackwood, without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of his superiors did lead a regiment of Blackwood cavalry in the salting of fields in the vicinity of Warrior’s Seat.

Bandits in the employ of Ser Olyvar Lucas did sack the Septry at Battle Valley, falsely bearing the arms of House Blackwood and thereby did wrong to House Blackwood, House Bracken, and the Faith of the Seven.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did violate the borders of their lands with House Darry, with Ser Tyron Blackwood using Darry lands as a point of refuge and staging ground for attacks and Ser Wyll Bracken, pursuing his attackers, did cause damage to Darry lands and holdings.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having recently been orphaned, did in his grief and youthful impulsiveness order an attack from under a flag of mourning upon Bracken troops.


II. Punishments

The following have been determined to be appropriate punishments for the aforementioned crimes.

II.A. Punishments levied upon House Bracken and House Blackwood.

{For the damage done to the lands and settlements of the region, including but not limited to the attacks at Pennytree and the salting of the fields at Warrior’s Seat,} no less than one quarter of each houses’ revenue income shall be spent on reconstruction, repair and maintenance of lands and holdings, for a period of no less than ten years or until the lands and holdings of the house have been restored. [25% of House Fortune income must be for Lands, Population, or Wealth (only if earmarked for the relevant holdings)]

No less that one quarter of each houses’ revenue income, plus any remainder from the previous item after a house’s lands and holdings have been repaired or rebuilt, shall be spent on internal peacekeeping efforts, for a period of no less than ten years. [50% of House Fortune income must be for Law or for the previous item, no less than 25% towards Law]

All revenues from the Bracken iron mine and the adjacent Blackwood iron mine, including the vein of crystal discovered therein during the investigation, shall be granted to the Crown for a period of no less than five years. Ownership of the mines shall continue as determined by previous treaties.

II.B. Punishments levied against individuals

Ser Steffon Vance shall be executed {method TBD}.

Maester Arran shall be executed {method TBD}. It is the recommendation of the representatives that the Citadel of Oldtown posthumously strip Maester Arran of his chain, and provide a new Maester of good character and peaceful disposition to House Blackwood.

Ser Tyron Blackwood shall exiled {scope &
duration TBD}, and his son, Jojen Blackwood, will be made ward and squire to Lord Haig Bracken. {Alternately, if Ser Tyron elects to join the Night's Watch, his son shall remain in the custody of Ser Myles Blackwood.}

Ser Olyvar Lucas shall serve as Warden of the Sept at Battle Valley for a period of no less than three years, living among the Brothers and receiving no incomes for his service. Any incomes earned by other means shall be donated to the Sept at Battle Valley to be used as alms for the unfortunate.

Ser Humphrey Piper shall be {TBD}.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having shown remorse for his crime and on account of his age, shall be forgiven with no further punishments.

Issues to be voted on (in order of appearance in the document):
(Dornish question not included as it is currently under vote IC, we can just let it play out there)

1. Reparations for the salted fields/Pennytree attacks are to be included in the 25% of income clause? (yes/no;
if no, how much and to whom, specifically)
2. Manner of Ser Steffon Vance's execution? (beheading, other;
if other, what?)
3. Manner of Maester Arran's execution? (beheading, burning, hanging, other;
if other, what?)
4. Scope of Ser Tyron's exile? (From the Riverlands, from westeros, other;
if other, what?)
5. Duration of Ser Tyron's exile? (10 years, life, other;
if other, how long?)
6. Option for Ser Tyron to take the Black to keep his son in Blackwood custody? (yes/no)
7. Punishment for Ser Humphrey? (Lose a hand, execution, other;
if execution, what manner?;
if other, what?)

I would suggest that each of the voting reps only vote, in this thread, on these matters. One post with a vote on each to keep things quick? If we don't get a majority on an option for one of them, we can open the floor to discussion. Otherwise, I think they have been discussed enough - the ideas and opinions of the vocal *cough* *cough* are out there. Some of the options entail other decisions to be made, putting something for that would be helpful to resolving this as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Note that these option lists should not be considered exhaustive, I tried to keep them limited to options that had been discussed, are possible, and/or might be considered appropriate by legal precedent/stats/etc. Where appropriate, I have included 'other' options. Feel free to write in something else even if I didn't, though.

If any of the voting representatives would care to raise any other issues (Ser Olyvar's punishment, etc.) include those in your posts as well, we can include them in a second round of voting if needed.

Those of us that are NOT voting reps, let's keep our commentary in our house forums and let the voting reps do with it what they will? This process really needs to get wrapped up, and interminable discussion isn't helping.

You've changed the mine back to what you had before, the opposite of what was voted.

[Ereth Redwain]

Lord Redwain will make short visit to the proceedings, anyway seems things are shaping up pretty well so far.

[Baelon Drakeson]

You've changed the mine back to what you had before, the opposite of what was voted.

Not quite. The mine poll, as written, only included where the funds were going. That has been changed. Previously there was language about mine revenue being used to reimburse those of us who donated to the rebuilding. That has been struck and, as per the vote, the funds will all go to the crown.

Really, if you think all five mines should be included, I think you need to make an argument that House Blackwood was four times as responsible as House Bracken to justify four times the penalty... and have people vote on that issue specifically.

[Yoren longshore]

You've changed the mine back to what you had before, the opposite of what was voted.

Not quite. The mine poll, as written, only included where the funds were going. That has been changed. Previously there was language about mine revenue being used to reimburse those of us who donated to the rebuilding. That has been struck and, as per the vote, the funds will all go to the crown.

Really, if you think all five mines should be included, I think you need to make an argument that House Blackwood was four times as responsible as House Bracken to justify four times the penalty... and have people vote on that issue specifically.

Wow, you didn't agree with the poll so you decided to rewrite it yourself? And then you argue that we need to expedite the process without telling us of the change?

The mines came from a previous peace treaty, but as that is broken the clause regarding the mines is just as broken as the rest of the previous treaty.
I don't want to spend the time now to discuss the mines in more detail, but I just wanted to point that out.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

maybe just state that the previous mines clause was broken by the actions of the houses, but the ownership of the mines will not change

[Yoren longshore]

maybe just state that the previous mines clause was broken by the actions of the houses, but the ownership of the mines will not change

My problem wasn't to do with the mines, that's easy to fix. My problem was with someone just conveniently neglecting to mention that the whole thing was completely altered from what was stated in the poll.

[Baelon Drakeson]

You've changed the mine back to what you had before, the opposite of what was voted.

Not quite. The mine poll, as written, only included where the funds were going. That has been changed. Previously there was language about mine revenue being used to reimburse those of us who donated to the rebuilding. That has been struck and, as per the vote, the funds will all go to the crown.

Really, if you think all five mines should be included, I think you need to make an argument that House Blackwood was four times as responsible as House Bracken to justify four times the penalty... and have people vote on that issue specifically.

Wow, you didn't agree with the poll so you decided to rewrite it yourself? And then you argue that we need to expedite the process without telling us of the change?

I have no ability to rewrite that poll. Clearly, that website has serious security issues. Seeing how this poll was overwritten it's clear to me that the previous issue wasn't a bot, it's a database hack. That one specific poll got overwritten - one in contention - tells me that someone who reads this thread has figured out a security exploit on that site and is messing with it. As before, that's not cool.

Yoren, please refrain from making baseless accusations. It's fine in IC but not in OOC. I had no need to change the poll - the changes I made were in line with it. If anything, I would say that someone who wanted to hide the original poll text changed it. My purposes are served better by showing that my text changes were in accordance with that original text.

Luckily, I put all the text from the polls in a post [url:39690jet]http:
//dragonsdance.
forumatic.
com/viewtopic.
php?f=75&
t=2355&
start=410#p72645[/url:39690jet].
The issue I had with the poll is that it conflates which revenues with who they go to. The option that won was a who-type option and thus I went with that.

Here is the text and votes, with indicators for what type of option each one was (note, the url is the same as before, but if you click through you can see the changed poll):

[url=What revenue of the mines should be paid?][/url]

All revenue to the crown (4) [who-type option]
Revenue of the two mines that was fighting (0) [which-type option]
Revenue should go to local rebuilding (0) [who-type option]
Revenue to the houses (0) [who-type option]

This brings up a serious problem, though. If this is a database hack, that means votes can be changed - which throws every one of those polls into doubt.

The mines came from a previous peace treaty, but as that is broken the clause regarding the mines is just as broken as the rest of the previous treaty.
I don't want to spend the time now to discuss the mines in more detail, but I just wanted to point that out.

Just because peace was broken doesn't automatically invalidate every article of previous treaties. Further, since no one has been arguing to change the ownership, it doesn't seem like a big deal to just put it back in this treaty.

My problem wasn't to do with the mines, that's easy to fix. My problem was with someone just conveniently neglecting to mention that the whole thing was completely altered from what was stated in the poll.

I would hope that I have made it clear that the changes I made were in complete alignment with the poll. If anything, the poll was not in alignment with what you wanted to have people voting on.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

so worringly the polls might have been changed. I suggest everybody who voted check each one matches what they voted

[Yoren longshore]

Make sure that only one member from each house vote. If I've missed a issue I will add it to the list.

http://strawpoll.me/6504524 http://strawpoll.me/6504555

http://strawpoll.me/6504589

http://strawpoll.me/6504615

http://strawpoll.me/6504627

http://strawpoll.me/6504642

http://strawpoll.me/6504657

http://strawpoll.me/6504677

http://strawpoll.me/6504701

http://strawpoll.me/6504712

http://strawpoll.me/6504742

http://strawpoll.me/6504755

None of the polls have been edited, I tried to edit in an option from Corrine and it's impossible. You have used wrong links for your poll, that is why you have issues. You need to link yours to these polls for it to work.

Your mine poll has the wrong link, there's no editing of the posts.

[Yoren longshore]

Although I don't know why one got 189. I told the website that people were only allowed to vote once.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

system blip or bots?

[Baelon Drakeson]

Your mine poll has the wrong link, there's no editing of the posts.

Copy-paste error, mea culpa.

Doesn't change that my treaty edits were in correct to the poll.

[Yoren longshore]

system blip or bots?

What does system blip mean? I googled it, but only a small company popped up...

Baelon;
No they weren't.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

it's a colloquialism - basically the system script not working as intended allowing or doing something different

[Yoren longshore]

it's a colloquialism - basically the system script not working as intended allowing or doing something different

Ok, ironically that is good, because then there is no one just being asses :;
):
Is there a way to fix it?

[Ser Jorah Holt]

I doubt it without having direct access to the code, admin rights to it and a clue what I was doing :;
):

[Yoren longshore]

For each solution technology brings, it also brings ten new problems...

[Baelon Drakeson]

Baelon;
No they weren't.

Rather than get side-tracked (again) into a "
yes!"
"
no!"
"
yes!"
"
no!"
pointless argument, let's just ditch that poll and have something a bit less open to interpretation.

Voting reps, please cast your votes on the following to replace the problematic mine strawpole.

1. What proportion of the mine penalty to should be paid by House Blackwood? (should include all possible combinations of the 1 Bracken and 4 Blackwood mines)

• None (no mine penalties to either house) [/*zoklujth]
  
• None (1 Bracken mine, 0 Blackwood)[/*zoklujth]
  
• Equal to House Bracken (1 mine each)[/*zoklujth]
  
• Twice as much as House Bracken (1 Bracken mine, 2 Blackwood)[/*zoklujth]
  
• Three times as much as House Bracken (1 Bracken mine, 3 Blackwood)[/*zoklujth]
  
• Four times as much as House Bracken (1 Bracken mine, 4 Blackwood) [/*zoklujth]
  
• All of it (0 Bracken mines, 1-4 Blackwood mines, TBD after if needed)[/*zoklujth]

2. How should the mine penalties in the previous question be used? (multiple options acceptable, proportions can be discussed after if needed)

• Give it to the crown[/*zoklujth]
  
• Repay the investigating houses the money they spent rebuilding &
  preventing the uprising, the remainder to go to the crown[/*zoklujth]
  
• Split the revenues among the investigating houses (letting them profit)[/*zoklujth]
  
• Rebuilding the region[/*zoklujth]
  
• Let House Bracken and House Blackwood keep it[/*zoklujth]
  
• Other[/*zoklujth]

Don't forget to vote on [url=these seven][/url] as well (Corrine, Arlyn, and Davain thank you for your votes)
Also in the [url=IC thread][/url], the vote on whether or not use the phrase "
Dornish merchants"

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

May I have an order list for things to still be voted on IC in the treaty thread? I want to be efficient. If desired, I could write a cover-all post for the stuff we've done polls on, like a bit of exposition.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

1. What proportion of the mine penalty should be paid by House Blackwood?

Equal to House Bracken (1 mine each)

2. How should the mine penalties in the previous question be used?

Give it to the Crown

[Septon Arlyn]

What about divesting the Blackwood's and Bracken's mine wealth holdings and giving it to the crown, as well as the crown placing a peacekeeping force on the region to help secure the mines. Then the house's could use the funds gathered from the crown paying for the mines to turn to other trade, such as agriculture or refining the ore harvested by the crown?

[Reader]

1. Reparations for the salted fields/Pennytree attacks are to be included in the 25% of income clause? Yes
2. Manner of Ser Steffon Vance's execution? Beheading
3. Manner of Maester Arran's execution? Beheading
4. Scope of Ser Tyron's exile? From Westeros (to Essos, to serve the Crown's interests there).
5. Duration of Ser Tyron's exile? Preferably life, but would settle for more than 15 years.
6. Option for Ser Tyron to take the Black to keep his son in Blackwood custody? Yes, with the caveat that he be watched for troublemaking or ill influence.
7. Punishment for Ser Humphrey? Beheading

this is house dulvers vote as well

Same for Barthelf as well.

Kytley votes in line with Lady Marsten's authority, although favouring 10-15 years for Ser Tyron Blackwood's exile based on forthcoming legal precedent from Daveth.

Takes us to 4/7 votes, carrying the day.

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