[Spoiler zone!] So, about season 6...

[Yoren longshore]

I'm no expert on popular culture, to put it like that I order wine by pointing on the menu... Not that I taste much difference any way...

However, that's a tangent, many of you guys seem to have a good grasp on both theatrics and literature, so I just wanted to find out what you thought about 6 (and previous seasons) and where you guys think they will take it from here. What did you enjoy and and what did you find to be poor taste?

So for example, this is my opinion, and I'd like to know if you agree or dissagree with me:
I thought it was some marvelous cinematics and good use of music, this left me glued to my seat. On set there were some brilliant actors who played well, and the show showed some new sides to some of the old characters. On the flip side, I found the dialogue to be nonsensical and often redundant, and many of the characters called some bad shots.
There were some decisions that a drunk, rhoided up, alpha-male gorilla would not have made, and some of them made my gut wrench.

I want to showcase examples of both (this is where a few spoilers comes in).
The Hound seemed to have found a place where he was accepted. He was treated well, and though a few people feared him, he had gone from being the hound that lived of and for violence to becoming a valued member of a community. He obviously cared for the people he worked with, and I hoped that they would give him a peaceful way out, to show that not everyone has to die painfully... optimistic from me, I know, but I felt the serenity, and the hound seemed a changed man.
Then when he found his people murdered I hoped that he might start on a new life for himself, that he might move on, but instead he murdered four people, two of which had never even loved a woman, and without knowing if they were even involved...
He then starts bickering with Beric Dondarrion on how many of the guilty he may kill, and he is back to the normal, hateful hound. NO CHANGES AT ALL!
Stories like his really frustrates me, and I had hoped that the writers could come up with one character to gradually evolve towards peace.

Now, for the arch that I am the most conflicted about, the Tyrion/Daenrys story.
Daenrys can learn something from her defeat, and on her episodes of wandering through the desert she seems thoughtfull, perhaps she can grow more dynamic?
Then Jorah and the sellsword shows up, they concoct a plan to murder everyone while Daenerys watches (though GRRM himself has said that she is not immune) This time she also keeps her hair... Apart from that inconsistency, NOBODY tries to attack her there and then?
The scenes with Tyrion teaching the unsullied and Missandre about humor and encourage them to become more dynamic are absolutely brilliant! Missandre proves to be an apt pupil, and though the unsullied is cold at first, he too showed promise... Tyrion stopped the sons of the harpy, made everyone work together, everything works out. Then the slavers comes, and I soo look forward to see Tyrions brilliance come into play!!! (no sarcasm meant!)
Then Daenrys shows up, she tells Tyrion they will massacre everybody who stand against her, she kills to emmisaries, and rides out on her deus ex drogon to solve everything with fire, so much for character development and reflection...
This storyline is about violence, fire, revenge and Daenrys reproductive organs. She is as mad as her father, she will watch the world burn and Tyrion, who seems to have one of the only good, logical storyarcs, will be ruined by these utterly meaningless and illogical sequences. They don't just ruin Daenrys arc, they drag others down the drain with her!!!

Enough of my rants, I won't even start on Arya, but what do you think?

BTW, to not seem all negative that Mormont girl is awesome! And Jon seems to have an interesting storyline too. Kings landing seems interesting too.

[Ser Alfred Haigh]

I agree on Danaerys, my prime issue with her is that they push her by dumbing others down and that they give her stuff constantly that she normally sits on for two seasons while doing nothing. I have to admit I used to find the dynamic between Ser Jorah and that Targaryen girl interesting, but nowadays they just grab the best things and shove them over to her to make her seem relevant and to give her a power base even Joffrey could have taken Westeros with. They have given her the dragons, Varys, Tyrion, Ser Barristan and all those other things. Now that there is this alliance with Yara Greyjoy, I'm getting concerned the series goes for the cheap approach towards Targaryen restauration. With Melisandre sent South, Oleanna and the Sand Snakes wanting revenge against the Lannisters and Jon/Sansa in the North, my personal worst case scenario is all of those factions teaming up with 'Dany' to restore whats good and right for mean backwater Westeros. And that doesn't even take Arya into account who has a bone to pick with the Lannisters, who defies Westerosi cultural norms, is wanted in Westeros, currently lives in Essos, is supposed to be a strong female character and of course has some super awesome special powers. Sounds familiar yet ?

Me, I don't care about Danaerys and the point at which they'll give her the cake and let her eat it is the moment I'll put that series aside. Especially if they go for the whole ten yards with Jon. Catering to yet another love story with a happy end to make viewers happy ? Its the cheapest and most cowardly ending and none I hope they will go for. My personal favourite ending would be the show bringing the Dany-Jorah relationship full cycle by making her go full Mad King and making Jorah the only one who can stop her, redeeming himself in the process. In my opinion, the foundations have been laid already. See her breaking the wheel speech. Danaerys gives her enemies the justice she thinks they deserve and everytime, it makes her feel more powerful and right. Until the very end. Ser Barristan had seen the signs before. Did he see them here too ?

So what don't I like ?
The Essos plot with Daenerys
Arya's plot. Super awesome Ninjas don't belong in Westeros for me.
Cersei becoming the bad stepmom/queen. Too obvious and everyone knows she wont hold on, but perhaps another boost for Ms Targaryen
Dorne, its as superfluous as it can be, only popping up when convenient

What do I like?
Phew, for me, the plot is only as good as the characters involved, so I tend to follow those that have lots of those I like in it. For me, that is mostly Ser Davos and Lady Mormont in the North, Brienne and Podrick, Ser Jorah (Memetic status as Ser friendzone or not, that guy appeals to me for some reason). Funnily enough, the latest developments redeemed Ser Jaime for me somewhat and I'm curious to see how he develops, especially in his relationship to Cersei. The storyline about the new three eyed raven is also something I'll follow closely. And with the development the Brotherhood without Banners is going through, they are also headed towards reunion of some quite interesting characters (Beric Dondarrion and the Starks, Sandor Clegane and the Starks, depending on how things go perhaps even to another confrontation between Melisandre and Thoros of Myr).

All I'm hoping for is that the show keeps a few juicy surprises and doesn't go for the common lowest denominator. because thats not exciting and lame. Especially for a show that has been billed as exciting and hard to anticipate.

Obviously I have gone into rant territory and shortened things because I didn't want to preach (well, peach too much, rather). If theres anything that might benefit from some elaboration, please point it out. If stuff is out of topic, say so. As always, happy to discuss !^^

[Nathaniel Mason]

Well, to be honest, I have never been a Danaerys fan, either in the show or the books, so I won't comment except to say that the treatment in the show was entirely predictable.

As far as Season 6, I think, for the most part, it's been dry and uninteresting throughout, despite the epicly high body count. Even some of the characters that eminently deserved their deaths came off as unsatisfying to me for some reason. Ramsey Bolton gets his just deserts, but only after he manages to slaughter about 6000 people. The High Sparrow gets his inevitable comeupance at Cersei's hand, along with a lot of innocent people and at the cost of her remaining child. Hardly a stellar moment of justice on anyone's part.

The Ser Loras character has been my pet gripe from Season 5. There are very few strong gay characters that come off as normal people. In the books he is a great Knight, if flawed. Having the character battered and completely broken by the High Sparrow only to be blown up with his sister is, to me, insulting and injurious, even if it is realistic.

Rikkon Stark exemplifies the whole season of fatal predictability to me. (None of us thought for even a moment he was going to get away, right? Even if we might have hoped otherwise.)

There have been some great cinematic moments. Green Wildfire reflected in Lancel's green eyes was inspired...

... but for the most part, I have been left feeling... meh... okay... so that happened.

[Yoren longshore]

I agree on Danaerys, my prime issue with her is that they push her by dumbing others down and that they give her stuff constantly that she normally sits on for two seasons while doing nothing. I have to admit I used to find the dynamic between Ser Jorah and that Targaryen girl interesting, but nowadays they just grab the best things and shove them over to her to make her seem relevant and to give her a power base even Joffrey could have taken Westeros with. They have given her the dragons, Varys, Tyrion, Ser Barristan and all those other things. Now that there is this alliance with Yara Greyjoy, I'm getting concerned the series goes for the cheap approach towards Targaryen restauration. With Melisandre sent South, Oleanna and the Sand Snakes wanting revenge against the Lannisters and Jon/Sansa in the North, my personal worst case scenario is all of those factions teaming up with 'Dany' to restore whats good and right for mean backwater Westeros. And that doesn't even take Arya into account who has a bone to pick with the Lannisters, who defies Westerosi cultural norms, is wanted in Westeros, currently lives in Essos, is supposed to be a strong female character and of course has some super awesome special powers. Sounds familiar yet ?

A season ago I'd confidently tel you that your concerns were unfounded, as nobody would do that, but now... I'm not so certain

All I'm hoping for is that the show keeps a few juicy surprises and doesn't go for the common lowest denominator. because thats not exciting and lame. Especially for a show that has been billed as exciting and hard to anticipate.

It was hard to anticipate when George was in charge, the screenwriters have yet to come with anything that surprised me overly much... Apart from the Mormont girl, who will conquer westeros before she hits puberty

Me, I don't care about Danaerys and the point at which they'll give her the cake and let her eat it is the moment I'll put that series aside. Especially if they go for the whole ten yards with Jon. Catering to yet another love story with a happy end to make viewers happy ? Its the cheapest and most cowardly ending and none I hope they will go for. My personal favourite ending would be the show bringing the Dany-Jorah relationship full cycle by making her go full Mad King and making Jorah the only one who can stop her, redeeming himself in the process. In my opinion, the foundations have been laid already. See her breaking the wheel speech. Danaerys gives her enemies the justice she thinks they deserve and everytime, it makes her feel more powerful and right. Until the very end. Ser Barristan had seen the signs before. Did he see them here too ?

That would be a good ending too, although I'll be happy with any ending that is not the Jon/Dany fixing the world and make everything ok. I actually hope that the others may turn out to be something other than Ice Zombies, perhaps with an objective, instead of being mindless killers...

Obviously I have gone into rant territory and shortened things because I didn't want to preach (well, peach too much, rather). If theres anything that might benefit from some elaboration, please point it out. If stuff is out of topic, say so. As always, happy to discuss !^^

This thread was honestly created just for me to channel my inner rage outwards, so that I would not sit with all the rage steaming on the inside. You guys are my therapy group :;
):

Well, to be honest, I have never been a Danaerys fan, either in the show or the books, so I won't comment except to say that the treatment in the show was entirely predictable.

It was predictable, but what surprised me was the way they tried to make her look like a hero, even when she kills thousands of innocents. The screenwriters seem to not follow in GRRM's tracks of not having any perfectly good or perfectly bad characters.

As far as Season 6, I think, for the most part, it's been dry and uninteresting throughout, despite the epicly high body count. Even some of the characters that eminently deserved their deaths came off as unsatisfying to me for some reason. Ramsey Bolton gets his just deserts, but only after he manages to slaughter about 6000 people.

The unsatisfying part is that if Sansa had just told Jon of the Vale army it could all have been avoided, nobody would have died, but when Sansa tells Jon he's just like, "
Ok, just don't hide anything more from me."

And I dislike how they kill Ramsey by making Sansa into the new Ramsey, I'd hoped that for once a swift death would be enough...

The High Sparrow gets his inevitable comeupance at Cersei's hand, along with a lot of innocent people and at the cost of her remaining child. Hardly a stellar moment of justice on anyone's part.

When he suddenly jumped out of the window I was close to start laughing, I'm a horrible human being...

The Ser Loras character has been my pet gripe from Season 5. There are very few strong gay characters that come off as normal people. In the books he is a great Knight, if flawed. Having the character battered and completely broken by the High Sparrow only to be blown up with his sister is, to me, insulting and injurious, even if it is realistic.

Rikkon Stark exemplifies the whole season of fatal predictability to me. (None of us thought for even a moment he was going to get away, right? Even if we might have hoped otherwise.)

It could have been easily avoided had they shown Ramsay the Vale knights, or if Rickon had just ran in sig-sag...

There have been some great cinematic moments. Green Wildfire reflected in Lancel's green eyes was inspired...

I agree about the action part...

... but for the most part, I have been left feeling... meh... okay... so that happened.

[/quote]
I feel upset, because if the screenwriters had just been doing a proper job, then it would all have been a great season!

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

I actually liked the developments this season. I guess I'm the minority?

I like the dissonance between 'Danerys as hero' and 'Danerys as conquerer.' I appreciate the way the show is sneakily working 'echoes' of history into the present. Jaime may have to kill another 'mad monarch' he thought he wanted to protect. Jorah may find himself faced with a similar choice. Dany may save Westeros from the White Walkers only to imperil it with dragonfire. The looming threat of one doom may conceal a far subtler one.

I also kind of like the whole 'Cersei finishes it all off' thing. Because it DOES feel hollow. So many dead, so much effort and pain for nothing. Nothing! In the end, Cersei is so dead inside she barely even blinks when she realizes Tommen's dead. Contrast that to her reaction to Joffrey and Myrcella. The shambling mound of Clegane is the only fit companion for her, because they are in many ways the same. What makes it interesting to me is to know the story of how she became this thing, and wondering how it will end for her.

Yeah, I'm disappointed that Margary and the Sparrow are dead;
their stories cut short. But I also feel like that kind of WORKS. It's what makes it raw and real. This is what it feels like when someone you care about is murdered. You feel a hole where they were. This is perhaps as close as a TV show can come to simulating that. Is it a cop out? Were they just trying to accelerate the plot and didn't have time to come up with a more satisfying end? Or is the -dissatisfaction- what they wanted all along?

I dunno. But I like that there's a question in my mind about it. The show makes me re-examine what I assume to be true about narratives and how they work.

[Reader]

Subscribing to this for when I'm on a proper PC. Agree with nathaniel on loras, but unlike some others I actually quite like pulpy/western angle of hound trying to settle down but trouble finding him.

[Loreia]

Not understanding your prediction about how Daenerys will go mad. All I've seen points to the contrary. Whatever bias she has towards the stories the people in Westeros pass around about her insane father, and however she feels about him based on the information Viserys fed her, she definitely hears the ring of truth in them regarding his insanity. So I see her trying to avoid becoming insane, or at least becoming what the people fear she will, and that means respecting the advise of the people close to her, especially Tyrion. That means not destroying the world around her.

Say what you will about the juxtaposition of TV Tyrion's motivations for actions he took directly after he was convicted(lord knows I do). That aside, I feel like the story that the producers have chosen to tell has thus far been told very well, and I say that with regards to how characters behave, emote, and the actions they are motivated towards. Then there are things like somehow finding Drogon after the Dothraki took her. I'd shrug it off as happening off-screen, but we really should see how she got her dragon back. Perhaps the producers will address this in the next (perhaps final) season.

As for how she's portrayed, I see some parts of Ramin Djawadi's music showcasing the cruelty with the bass and the deep vocal segments, and as much as the producers may want idealize her(and do), I feel like they did address it in Season 5. Such as(probably completely consisting of) her subjects coming forward with their troubles in regard to her dragons and her method of executing the masters, when she decides brings the masters down to feed her dragons and changes her mind, and with her advisors showing her more options when she only sees one.

I'm not sure how the Others are handled in the books, but deciding that they were magical constructs made from men, and showing us, took all the mystery out of it for me. I can't feel the same fear for them as the realm of Westeros does anymore.

Overall, we've seen loss after loss. It feels good to see the good guys(my good guys) on a winning streak for once/again, so I really enjoyed season 6.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I agree with Nathan, basically.

Also, Lyanna Mormont is awesome.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Having now (despite my reservations about getting ahead of the books) watched the rest of S5 and S6, I can comment... or rather rant.

Jon leaves the Night's Watch? Seems out of character. He's not a quitter - he's had opportunity after opportunity to run away, and never done it before. Davos should have fled south with the body and Melisandre revived him elsewhere... then he broods (this is Jon, after all) about whether to go back or stay. They finds Sansa and co., the rest of the plot happens.

I did like that they kept showing Ghost around the resurrection. During Mel's workings, then right before he wakes up... a nice nod to what I am quite sure happens in the books: Jon is living a second life in Ghost, which is why he doesn't wake up right away. I think Ghost should have been a blood sacrifice for Jon though. That would explain why we don't see Ghost again after that (and why no one talks about it).

I like the backbone Sansa has developed. it made her interesting to me for the first time ever - books or show. However, I didn't find it believable. Several times we see Ramsay torture people and they break. Then Sansa is tortured and becomes stronger? Why is she different? Is it because she's got Stark Magic Plot Armor(tm)? Blah.

I agree with everyone else about Loras. I liked the attitude differences between Dorne, Reach, and others: from "
sounds like fun"
to "
so what"
to "
terrible!"
. It meant that the "
good guys"
in the north/riverlands/etc. had flaws too.

Sticking with the High Sparrow arc - overall, bleh. Evil in the name of faith is a trite and worn out storyline. I liked in the books how it was much more about the politics of using faith - that is much more current (here in the US, at least) and interesting. Also, how is it that the sparrows could break everyone except Cersei? How was she able to... well, maintain sanity is the wrong way to put it. It was like had she mental plot armor. That or they mastered the art of instilling capture-bonding just after she was released. Apparently reading from the Seven-Pointed Star was the key - that's the only difference we saw. I always thought of Margaery as Cersei with better PR skills and less incest. Her near-full brainwashing was way off from that. Near-full because there were some implications that she was faking it - the hidden message to her Grandmother (if that wasn't a ploy to make her Grandmother think she was faking it, but that's a bit too deep for TV) and her last scene: "
Forget the gods!"
could have been phrased to be less heretical - "
if she won't come to the trial, let's take the trial to her!"
. Seriously, I thing the High Sparrow must have known something was coming - telling M to get the Queen of Thorns to leave, then holding everyone in the Sept far too long... that was the first time he seemed anything other than calm and fully in control.

I always expected Cersei to triumph over Margaery in the end - all prophecies seem to refer to the Targaryans, and therefore the younger queen in Maggy's prediction to Cersei would be Danaerys. The wildfire though... meh. Trying a bit TOO hard to make Cersei the new Mad King Aerys. Probably to better justify Danaerys' conquest (I mean really - they are laying on the 'Dany overcomes the Mad King's legacy' thing WAY too thick... and now it's got a physical analogue! They've really set things up for Jaime to have to choose between being King and Kingslayer. He was stripped from the Kingsguard (boo), Cersei killed ALL the opposition (boo), and they are trying to make Cersei into Aerys (boo). A Targ style incestuous marriage makes total sense... and it's not like there are any children to de-legitimize with it, either.

Dany's successful was always pretty much inevitable, but now she's going to have a massive army against a pitiful resistance. For that matter, there are NO remaining legitimate claims against her - not even Shereen. Just Cersei, Qyburn, and the totally-not-mysterious-or-interesting Mountain. Speaking of - come on. No one really doubted that Ser Robert Strong was really the reanimated corpse of the Mountain, but not one character blinks an eye that a dead man has come back to "
life"
? Really? Sure, we've seen it elsewhere in the show, but the characters haven't... and that's exactly what Qyburn was theoretically kicked out of the Citadel for - which the Grandmaester would have known, at least.

Speaking of former high council - not digging Varys the Saint. Seriously, they gave one of Varys' best scenes to Qyburn. Lame.

Rant ends here. The remainder of the post is as long as the rant...
Season 7 Predictions... mostly tongue in cheek, but none of this would surprise me:

Cersei demands that Jaime marry her. Jaime forces her to admit she blew up the Great Sept (including their uncle Kevan), rejects her but can't kill her, and leaves (for Casterly Rock or the North to find Brienne, whom he realizes he loves). She promises to marry Littlefinger for money (when even Lannister forces start abandoning her for lack of pay).

Euron &
co fight Dany at sea but lose 'cause dragons. Yara and Theon die in the fighting 'cause "
dramatic tension"
. Dany lands and conquers Kings Landing, with Dornish and Reach forces surrounding by land. Littlefinger tries to kill Cersei, but the Mountain impales him on the swords of the Iron Throne. He gets his wish, but it is fatal. A serving girl kills Cersei, then reveals herself to be Arya. The Mountain tries to kill her and almost succeeds, but Arya has plot armor and drives needle through the opening of his helmet. She declares her list done, but the mountain stands up again and is about to crush her when he is enveloped in dragon flame. Arya disappears again, thanks to face dancer magic (er, faceless man/water dancer - this isn't Dune). We see her walking down a hallway, wiping her face off to reveal Jaqen H'ghar. We never see either of them again, and it is left unclear whether it ever was Arya or if she truly became No One and a faceless man was wearing her face. (roll credits)

Jaime broods about not saving Cersei, then gets over it realizing he couldn't anyway, and she deserved it.

Dany and army go north to take Riverlands, find no one but the Brotherhood. Beric bonds with Viserion.

Dany goes to the Vale. Robin tries to physically throw Tyrion out the moon door, but miserably fails and falls out himself. Tyrion quips something witty. Dany remarks that the Wheel is finally fully broken, but Varys shows up out of nowhere and tells them the Boltons have fallen and that Jon the White Wolf (a name that makes no sense without Ghost, but nobody comments on this) is King in the North. Tyrion remarks that the Starks are different and that Jon is a good man. Nobody mentions his broken vow to the Night's Watch.

The White Walkers freeze the sea from Hardhome and go around the wall. They attack Castle Black, because going vast distances out of your way for dramatic tension makes sense on TV. Bran and Meera make it to the wall, and in a final act of desperation, Bran uses magic to hold them off, but it looks grim. Beric &
the brotherhood arrive just in time, and things are looking good, lots of burning skeletons and such, but then the night king creates a massive spear of ice that kills Viserion and Beric. Thoros is also killed, so he can't bring Beric back again. Because TV. Bran uses magic to bring the wall down on top of the army of the dead. This seems to work, but then the Night King crawls free and raises his arms, and we see dead-Meera, dead-Hound, and dead-Edd emerge from the wreckage... followed by dead-Viserion who roars (roll credits).

Jaime dies trying to save Brienne who is trying to save Sansa from a white walker. Both fail and die. Pod picks up Oathkeeper, turns out to be better than either Jaime or Bryene and saves Sansa, gets knighted by Davos for it. Sansa and Pod become a thing, but the wedding is interrupted by the dead. The main characters flee but everyone else dies. (roll credits)

Jon recognizes they are losing (duh) and wants to surrender to Dany, because surrender is better than becoming one of the dead, but Lyanna Mormont convinces everyone that the north will never kneel to anyone not a Stark, and because somehow there is still a North to resist (even though everyone at Winterfell died) he and Dany wed. Jon bonds with Rhaegal. Ghost remains missing, his absence unremarked upon. Still. (roll credits)

An epic fight ensues dragons vs. ice dragon the heroes win in the end, but the dragons all die. Magic begins to fade from the world, starting with the magic winter. Tyrion remarks that winters and summers will get shorter and shorter, until they aren't even a year long. Dany reveals that she can't have children any more, and there are no great houses left (ignoring that Tyrion could claim House Lannister), institutes democracy, and everyone lives happily ever after. (roll credits for the last time).

Season 7 DVD sales are disappointingly low. GRRM renounces the post-ADWD seasons and indicates that Books 7 and 8 (and by implication the 9th, 10th, and 11th he's not planning yet) will be nothing like that.... and as he hasn't started writing them yet, he can make sure that he is right.

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