[D5, Early Evening] A Heated Debate

[Reader]

A Heated Debate – Inheritance
During tonight's festivities, a heated debate breaks out over inheritance customs and the “Dornish Way” of allowing women to inherit according to their place in the birth order, rather than simply as a last resort. The untutored argue from religious conviction, prejudice or personal belief, but many wiser heads see the opportunity to make influential friends...
Those seeking favour from the queen and the Greens swiftly begin to argue for traditional Andal ways, while the Princess's Black supporters find themselves promoting a Dornish position – at least in certain circumstances.

Participants: max four per house.

Challenges
Persuasion (any) or Deception (any) – TN 9 [Greens]
Persuasion (any) or Deception (any) – TN 12 [Blacks] - you're arguing for a much more controversial position. Nobody ever said Dragon's Dance would be balanced/fair.
- remember to roleplay your speciality choice, as ever, certain options may have consequences!
each time you succeed on a roll, you gain 1 debate point (maximum 4)
each time you succeed on a roll, your following roll's TN increases by 2
If you fail a roll = -1 debate points
Critical failure = -3 debate points (not cumulative)
You can stop rolling whenever you like!

Consequences
Note whether you're supporting black or green at the end of your post.
Paste your stance her in to your private forum – words here are said in public and might come back to bite you later.
Pass all four rolls = +1 glory
Pass all four rolls and highest total across all four rolls = +1 glory
Highest total debate points (Black or green) = +1 to black or green score

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

While Corrine found herself to be merely a passable archer, rhetoric and persuasive sophistry are her strong points. It helps that she is debating a cause she feels strongly about. When she has the opportunity to speak, she puts her view forward in a calm manner, with a note of encouragement and hope in her voice, hoping to win people over with her passion for the subject. However, as she is but a young woman who has not yet proved herself as a leader, her words ring hollow at times to some of the listeners.

"
Regardless of what one may think of Dorne, it cannot be denied that they are a unique and strong nation, and I believe that this is in no small part to their more egalitarian approach to leadership, and how they treat their women. With their indomitable spirit and will, their independence, and their embracing of the future, they demonstrate as a nation women are an integral part of their power structure, and therefore that female rule does not necessarily weaken a force, and it is my view that having a balance between the sexes in terms of inheritance actually enhances their society.

Why dismiss and deny half of the population on the basis of their gender? A woman is no less capable of ruling than a man, as it has been seen in the past, though sadly not enough. Many women throughout history, even in the history of our Realm, have shown their competence, their fortitude, and their valour. There are women in Westeros today that are strong leaders in their own right, and I would see more of such women.

The days of women being left behind in the line of succession are numbered, as we see even now that there are female heirs, ready to demonstrate their ability to their people, their allies, and their critics. I will be head of my House someday, and I intend to rule as justly and wisely as my father before me, with the knowledge that I am setting an example for my future children. And, if my eldest child is a daughter, I will teach her to rule as my own mother has taught me, in the time she has steered our House through rough and smooth, never faltering.

Someday, we will see our Princess ascend the Iron Throne, and it shall be plain for all to see that a powerful woman is every bit as fit to rule as a man, and perhaps then, others will see that times are changing, and the Realm must change with it to continue flourishing. I call on all of you, men and women, to see your mutual worth, to value eachother equally, and to work together to keep that which we hold dear safe and strong for generations to come."


[url=Persuasion - Charm][/url]: 6d6k5 17
[url=Persuasion - Charm][/url]: 6d6k5 20
[url=Persuasion - Charm][/url]: 6d6k5 20
[url=Persuasion - Charm][/url]: 6d6k5 18

(rolls include rerolls for Attractive Quality)

4 debate points, 7 DoS, 75 points total, +1 Glory

[Supporting Black faction]

[Baelon Drakeson]

Much like in previous days, Baelon doesn't make and grand speeches, but rather moves from group to group, always targeting those that seem to have the most influence on the sycophants around them.

"
It's simple really. By Andal tradition, every man worth calling a man honors and respects women. Whether it is his mother, sister, wife, daughter, or even a total stranger;
if he is a true man, he is to show them honor and respect. It is part of our knightly vows, and it is part of the faith of the Seven. How then can we say that slighting women in their inheritance is consistent with the ideals of the Andal culture? Clearly, there is a contradiction there. Forget what they do in Dorne;
that doesn't really matter here in the Seven Kingdoms. Why do we deny women their inheritance? Because that's how it's 'always' been done... but it doesn't make any sense. All true knights and true men should join me in supporting female inheritance."


OOC:
[url=Persuade(Charm) TN 12][/url]: 6d6+2 22 1d6 1 1d6 3 both replace, 24 [3 DoS]
[url=Persuade(Charm) TN 14][/url]: 6d6+2 28 1d6 5 1d6 6 no replace, 28 [3 Dos]
[url=Persuade(Charm) TN 16][/url]: 6d6+2 21 1d6 5 1d6 4 both replace, 28 [3 Dos]
[url=Persuade(Charm) TN 18][/url]: 6d6+2 17 1d6 2 1d6 3 both replace, 20 [1 Dos]

4 Debate points for the black faction, 10 DoS, Total = 100 even
+1 Glory

Ugh, I had something much better written out, then lost power... this is a dime-store reproduction at best. Appealing to gender roles to argue against gender roles... using a reductio... yeah, this is probably a bit too much me rather than Baelon, just imagine it being somewhat less well reasoned and far more charming.

[IC Post coming soon]

[url=Deception (Bluff) TN 12][/url]: 7d6k6 27
[url=Deception (Bluff) TN 14][/url]: 7d6k6 26
[url=Deception (Bluff) TN 16][/url]: 7d6k6 18
[url=Deception (Bluff) TN 18][/url]: 7d6k6 17 fail
re-roll [url=Deception (Bluff) TN 18][/url]: 7d6k6 23

+1 glory, 4 debate points, 94 total
Blacks

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

(Aw, heck, might as well jump on the train... PLACEHOLD)

[url=Persuade (Charm) for debate TN 12][/url]: 6d6k4 19
[url=Persuade (Charm) for debate TN 14][/url]: 6d6k4 20
[url=Persuade (Charm) for debate TN 16][/url]: 6d6k4 20
[url=Persuade (Charm) for debate TN 18][/url]: 6d6k4 16

(Egads! Flubbed the last one, and no 1's to reroll! So 2 debate points total. Guess Gwyn is a bit distracted. )

[Nathaniel Mason]

Speech after I think of something clever.

[url=Persuade (Convince) TN 9][/url]: 5d6k3+1d6 15
[url=Persuade (Convince) TN 11][/url]: 5d6k3+1d6 15
[url=Persuade (Convince) TN 13][/url]: 5d6k3+1d6 19
[url=Persuade (Convince) TN 15][/url]: 5d6k3+1d6 18

Green support.
+1 Glory
67 Total.

[Note: Unlike others who are trying to win the debate with charming wit and an easy smile, I am actually arguing facts. ]

[Theomore Tullison]

Ser Theomore enjoys this sort of thing, but to compete with Ser Baelon's magnetism? Whatever he was, the man had inherited his father's knack for making people miss the words forming his arguments and just agree with the conclusions. Or the more considerate voices, like the interesting young boy from that Bartheld brothel...the ones coming up with quite reasonable arguments. For certain, a small victory might be had to the side that would sway the crowd's opinion. A small victory. But there was another path to victory, a darker, more dangerous path. A more vicious blow to strike for the prince. Oh, he delivered his lines to be sure. Andals have their rules of inheritance, the Rhoynar have others. But who could stand and claim that House Targaryen are governed by the laws of the seven? Do they not, after all, marry brother to sister? Dragons fly above such walls that confine other men.

He presents his arguments at the opportune moments, not to win the debate itself, but rather to edge others on to make a heated debate hotter still. Fueling anger and irritation with seemingly innocent comments, before slipping back to hide under the cacophony of erupting voices, allowing others to parry and riposte the blows he starts. Spotting a familiar face, or rather, more like noticing the pattern of snakelike movement through the congregating groups of queensmen and words dripping with a special sort of slow acting venom seeping into them to corrupt, he steps up his game, feeding that crafty friend of his with just the sort of bait he needs to make things turn into chaos.

After all, the side that resorts to fists always looses the debate.....

[url=Deception-Bluff TN12][/url]: 5d6k4+3 17 2 DoS
[url=Deception-Bluff TN14][/url]: 5d6k4+3 20 2 DoS
[url=Deception-Bluff TN16][/url]: 5d6k4+3 16 1 DoS
[url=Deception-Bluff TN18][/url]: 5d6k4+3 21 1 DoS

+1 glory, 4 debate points to black, 74, Theomore is using the taunt technique, subtly encouraging the more hot-headed greens to resolve to their fists.



Raff, too, was rather fond of these sorts of games, though seeing what ser set out to accomplish, he knew the meaning of that devilish look upon his eyes, the furious Frey had been brought off balance by such words, Raff only needed to deliver the gentle push to send him tumbling over the edge...and so the rules of the game was set. Ser might not be too happy about Raff debating against him, but he was like to appreciate the assistance in achieving his true goal, and surely, even though Raff does make certain boring phrases such as repeating the council of 101 passing over Rhaenys in favor of King Viserys clearly showing that Targaryen laws are different, and the male comes before the female. Though mostly, he retorts to the more mean spirited remarks from the black side in a subtle display of agitation, and serving venomous words in the ears of the more hot-headed men around him.

[url=Deception-Bluff TN9][/url]: 5d6k4 12 1 DoS
[url=Deception-Bluff TN11][/url]: 5d6k4 17 2 DoS
[url=Deception-Bluff TN13][/url]: 5d6k4 19 2 DoS
[url=Deception-Bluff TN15][/url]: 5d6k4 17 1 DoS

+1 glory, 4 debate points to green, 65, Raff is using the incite technique, subtly encouraging the more hot-headed greens to resolve to their fists.

And of course: [url=Disguise][/url]: 5d6k4 21

[Jon Cobb]

Jon had been passing the evening pleasantly enough, drinking with other knights, when he found himself inadvertently dragged into the debate while discussing matters of leadership with Ser Roger Corne, Lord Fossoway, and other Greens.

"
Calm yourself, Ser Roger! I have no dog in this fight, and it is certainly so that how they do things down in Dorne need not inform how we manage our affairs in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, but surely you must agree that there's many a man that's ruled who did more harm than good? And that the only reason he ruled in the first place was because Andal tradition put him there?"

...
"
Well of course it doesn't mean that a woman should always rule in place of a man, but you're an intelligent fellow, Ser Roger - is it really inconceivable that a competent woman, trained in the arts of rulership, could do a better job than some men? I've never married, but I've had plenty of noblemen tell me that they're mighty glad that their wives take responsibility for stewardship of their domains, and that their lands prosper for it. Surely that must count for something in a discussion such as this? Aagh, all this talking is making me thirsty - more wine, my friend?"

...
"
My apologies, Lord Fossoway, it was a wicked jest, nothing more!"
Jon placates the irate nobleman. "
I'm certainly no Maester, to be expounding on the intricacies of inheritance laws, I'm arguing from a simple soldier's perspective. Wouldn't you agree that, as a rule, successful armies are led by a single general, and if that man is wise, he will appoint his captains for their qualities and not simply their station? More importantly, once those captains are appointed, don't you agree that none should gainsay the general's decision until those captains have been tested in battle? After all, if the officers publicly gainsay their general, why should any common footsoldier then obey their captains?"

...
"
Well indeed, Sers, it does seem to me that a parallell can be drawn to the current situation in the realm. His Grace has made his will known - he has proclaimed the Princess his heir and trained her to rule - and now his officers, so to speak, are challenging that decision before she has even been allowed to prove herself. I must thank you all for helping me see things more clearly. In truth, I had not given this matter much thought before today, but your arguments have forced me to think things through, and I must conclude that there is greater danger to the realm in contesting the King's decision, than in allowing his chosen heir to take the helm when His Grace meets the Stranger."


[url=Persuasion (Charm)][/url]: 5d6 17 2 DoS
[url=Persuasion (Charm)][/url]: 5d6 18 1 DoS
[url=Persuasion (Charm)][/url]: 5d6 22 2 DoS
[url=Persuasion (Charm)][/url]: 5d6 16 Spend 1DP to gain a bonus die: [url=DP for bonus die][/url]: 1d6 5, final total 20 1 DoS

4 debate points for Blacks, 6 DoS, 77 total
+1 Glory

[Reader]

[OOC:

The blacks carry the debate. Unfortunately lop-sided among our PCs.

+1 Black score.

Corrine +1 glory
Baelon +2 glory
Edmund +1 glory
Gwyn no glory (a rare poor performance from a previous event winner, generously allowing others a shot)
Nathaniel +1 glory
Theomore +1 glory
Jon Cobb +1 glory

Please note this on your character sheet with a link to this thread]

[Sponsored content]