Re: [D7, MA] Forming The Treaty (Open)

[Baelon Drakeson]

"
Certainly, I agree with that, and we certainly must address the issue of Ser Humphrey. I only wish to deal with one matter at a time to keep the process moving along. Are there any objections to leaving the phrasing of the attack as 'Dornish merchants'?"


[OOC: I think it's only fair to give at least 24 hours for people to respond, so in another 8 hours or so if no objections are raised we can move on to Ser Humphrey? Both IC and OOC I'm just trying to keep this orderly so we don't have things falling by the wayside again.]

[Yoren longshore]

OOC: http://strawpoll.me/6504755/r

Yoren sighs before telling them: "
Pennytree requires some delicate handling, on the one hand, few are aware of the Dornish caravan, and it's mention in the treaty may well cause foreign merchants to think Westeros unsafe. It would thus be a prudent measure to leave the mention of Dorne from the treaty, but at the same time show no leniency upon their murderers in order to restore confidence among other Dornish merchants that their safety is taken seriously. We need to consider the impact of our wording, nationality matters."

[Baelon Drakeson]

"
Do you have any evidence that only few know of the nationality of the merchants? It is widely known here in Battle Valley, and I have no reason to think that news of it would not have spread much further. It's inclusion in the King's missive is evidence that it is in fact quite well known."


[OOC: that poll was before any IC discussion and thus is fairly useless, as well as being inconclusive. That is the whole point of bringing this up IC, remember? If there are IC objections to the wording, they should be brought up and discussed.]

[Benedict Marsten]

"
Few may know or many, but I know that the Dornish will know. A merchant caravan does not easily disappear without trace and they are ones who's knowledge matter. Leave it out and we appear to aid in any cover-up. Punish those we can fiercely, as Lord Davain says, and we show them we value them as much as our own."


Ben nods his approval of Davain's words.

[Theomore Tullison]

[The NPC part in this post approved by reader]

Lord Dunstan stands up, his posture that of a man with something of great importance on his mind. "
The damage has been done"
he declares dramatically "
The men of House Bracken turned to banditry with no care as to who they hurt, upon lands ostensibly under the protection of their own liege. Let us not add to this damage by declaring it to all ports across the seas that Westeros is unsafe for merchants. And let us show those that knows of the caravan that we punish those who did this against their countrymen with severity."
He then sits down, as if this statement was all that was required to make the assembly come to their senses.

Theomore studies the reactions of others as much as assuaging how well his nephew presented his argument. More a statement, actually. It would be interesting to learn who thinks these words were Dunstan's own, aside from the polish they had received, of course.

[Baelon Drakeson]

"
Yes, the damage has been done, and the whatever fear merchants may have as a result will occur whether or not we include the word 'Dornish'. Why add distrust to that fear?"


He shakes his head.

"
I've spoken with many merchants over the past year. Not a single one of them considers their profession to be without risks. What matters to them is not that a a caravan was attacked, it is what we do in response, and to prevent it from happening again. If we hide the truth here, we only send the message that we would rather deny such attacks than prevent them. Dunstan, my friend, you are a good and noble person. I have no doubt that you intend well. However, what you propose would harm trade far more than being honest, as is proper for anointed knights."


This Dornish issue is probably what Theo was trying to hide when he arranged the second attack on Pennytree. That Lord Haig said he specifically wanted the Dornish goods and not other recompense speaks volumes.

[Theomore Tullison]

"
Perhaps you have, Lord Baelon."
Theomore steps into the discussion to defend his nephew. "
Though I would question the wisdom of basing our decision upon your interactions with such merchants as visit Caladan Hall this past year and ignore the experience of a man who spent more than a decade outside Westeros when it is the reaction of foreign merchants to what we do here that is under consideration."
He gives a nod to Yoren. "
Reports of Dornish merchants being attacked has reached the king, which means that yes, they have reached others too, but news does not spread across the narrow sea so easily, no."


"
Rumors will spread as they always do, confirming them in a document read by all of the seven kingdoms will make them spread a tenfold faster and wider. And so will their veracity be. So, respectfully, I must submit that you are wrong my lord, to do as you propose will have the opposite effect. To put it simply, if word is that a merchant caravan is attacked, foreign traders will shrug and accept it as the risks of their profession, as you say. If however, it is specified that a foreign caravan was attacked, they will assume that Westeros is full of dangerous bandits when it really only was Ser Humphrey and his men that simply thought they could get away with their deeds."


"
I should also like to add that I do not believe it difficult to phrase it such that omitting further specification of the victims identity will neither look like an oversight nor a coverup, a suitable interpretation of our position might be that banditry is banditry no matter whom it is performed against. And is this not the proper way of anointed knights and others of noble spirit? To treat all who fall afoul of such deeds as equals, without regard of where they came from? The consequences of this particular act of banditry is potentially worse than it otherwise could have been, this is true. But mention of the origins of these merchants in the treaty may well send the signal that the crown only truly cares to act if foreign merchants are attacked."
Theomore allows a pause, to better deliver his final argument, one he had rehearsed in his mind.

"
And is that a signal we wish to send to men like those that has been brought over the edge in battle valley? That nobody cares what lords and knights do to them? We can here choose to serve the father's justice of considering men equals no matter where they come from, while delivering the king's justice at the same time."

[Baelon Drakeson]

"
Yes, Ser Theomore, we are all aware of your special interest in Pennytree. That you choose to offer a lecture on how to carefully phrase lies so as to avoid the appearance of lying says much about how you view honor and knightly vows - and makes me for one doubt every word that comes out of your mouth."


He scoffs.

"
Lord Haig told me yesterday that you were especially interested in collecting the goods taken from the Dornish merchants - shortly before the second attack on Pennytree. Could it be that the second attack there was specifically to cast doubt on who the victims actually were? Has that been your intent from the beginning?"


He shakes his head.

"
The people of Battle Valley know the truth. Omitting it would tell them that we are cowards and liars more concerned with politics than justice. Is that the message we wish to send? We send the signal that we care about the people here with the punishments we set and the stipulations requiring House Bracken and House Blackwood to bring peace and prosperity to their smallfolk, not by telling falsehoods of who the victims are."


EDIT: Grammar.

[Septon Arlyn]

"
Yes, Ser Theomore, we are all aware of your special interest in Pennytree. That you choose to offer a lecture on how to carefully phrase lies so as to avoid the appearance of lying says much about how you view honor and knightly vows - and makes me for one doubt every word that comes out of your mouth."


"
Lord Haig told me yesterday that you were especially interested in collecting the goods taken from the Dornish merchants - shortly before the second attack on Pennytree. Could it be that the second attack there was specifically to cast doubt on who the victims actually were? Has that been your intent from the beginning?"

So that is what Lady Gwyn was hinting at. I wonder if they have any evidence besides what Lord Haig has said. However if evidence was "
gathered"
that hints that there was a bit to be had. If that was the case then some man would have had to bring it out of the warrior's seat. As in all of my investigations, some being quite thorough, did not turn up any signs of a cavalry man or Ser Theomore then it would have to have been a third party, some other cat's-paw. That someone is probably long gone, unless that feels so confident in his handiwork that he is skulking around some of the more desperate places in battle valley. Prehaps I should turn my attention towards them. Septon Arlyn's thoughts continue through his head, yet he remains' impassive, perhaps leaning over to whisper some comments into Terren's ear.

[Theomore Tullison]

"
My lord forgets that I squired for his father."
Theomore replies calmly, if there was a perceived insult in Baelon's words, he chooses not to take it as one. Baelon attacking his person rather than his argument might be taken more as a compliment than an insult to a certain state of mind, after all. "
One of his lessons was that the truth can hurt, sometimes this will not be needed, while speaking of a peer as a man lacking of wit and wisdom is being honest, to withhold such opinion is not to lie. In fact, withholding such opinion would be the honorable thing to do."


I wonder, when Ser Walton learns of Baelon's words...I find it difficult to believe that he will let that challenge pass

"
I make no claim as to this choice being more honorable than the other, nor is it one we should make lightly, but I am as certain as a man can be that it is the right one to make. I have attended the court of our good king at least once almost every year for the one and a half decade that I have been a knight, along with the courts of dozens upon dozens of other lords, from Winterfell to the Arbor. I should think this experience makes my intuition on matters such as these quite accurate, I could be wrong in this, we all make mistakes from time to time, but with experience such mistakes tends to become fewer and of lesser gravity."

[Baelon Drakeson]

"
The right choice for whom, ser? Perhaps for yourself or for those who pull your puppet-strings, but certainly not for the victims or for the people of the Seven Kingdoms."

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

"
Order, please,"
Corrine warns, firmly, but without raising her voice. "
Let's not have things descend into personal squabbling."

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Gwyn leans over to Baelon and whispers, "
She's right. There will be a time and a place to go over all this. It isn't here. Patience, love."

[Baelon Drakeson]

Whispering back to Gwyn, Baelon responds with a slight smile.
"
I can't help it if the flaws in his argument point to flaws in his nature. If he lies through omission or makes misleading statements, it must be pointed out. I'll try to do so with less... disdain, though."

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

"
Let's try to return to point. I understand that these are complex and far-reaching matters that we all care about, but we must try to be expedient. All in favour of including the phrasing of "
Dornish merchants"
in the clause on Pennytree, say aye."

[Reader]

Lord Tullison is conspicuously silent, but Jamys Rivers speaks up for house Kytley as Lady Marsten exerts her authority and drags proceedings forward.

"
Aye."

[Davain Bartheld]

"
Aye"

[Septon Arlyn]

Septon Arlyn breaks his silence. "
Just to clarify my Lady, this vote is to use the words dornish merchants? Not merely to replace the phrasing with something like merchants from dorne or to strike the word dornish from the treaty?"
He asks to clarify.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Septon Arlyn breaks his silence. "
Just to clarify my Lady, this vote is to use the words dornish merchants? Not merely to replace the phrasing with something like merchants from dorne or to strike the word dornish from the treaty?"
He asks to clarify.

"
Indeed. To specifically use the phrase "
Dornish merchants"
to refer to those merchants attacked at Pennytree,"
Corrine explains. "
If you agree, say "
aye"
. If you disagree, say "
nay"
."

[Tymon Lannister]

Ser Tymon leaned to Septon Arlyn and Terren and said "
I understand we don't want to inflame animosity between kingdoms but in this case i think leaving Dornish out of the wording is a mistake. The nationality of those attacked is already well known. I think leaving the wording out only makes it look as if we are attempting to gloss over the fact they were Dornishmen. I spent 5 years as a squire to Ser Alayne Tarly, much of it fighting Dornishmen. They are an honorable and honor bound nation and I think would take insult if we glossed over their nationality, or more likely would think we were trying to cover something up when everyone knows who it was that was attacked."
Ser Tymon chuckled and said "
I know I am a Soldier, not a courtier, but wanted to provide what information I had.

[Terren Dulver]

Terren will nod to Ser Tymon and then say “I suggest then that we don’t leave out the word Dornish, and that we simply try to spread the rumour that the bandits that raided the caravan were punished harshly, as to ensure merchants would not be discouraged to come to this area.”

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
Aye."

[Ereth Redwain]

Ereth walks in late to the proceedings wearing a white long sleeve shirt and a red doublet, with black breeches and high boots, bowing to all present but directly to the Marsten couple "
My apologies, just here to observe"
. Taking a seat separated from most, he was curious on how they would manage the salting fields, as it can set a precedent for someone like him with extensive farming.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

[ooc: Ereth would have to have presented himself to the guards, to be announced. You don't get to just walk in. :;
): ]

When Lord Redwain's arrival is announced, Corrine raises an eybrow, but instructs the guards to admit him.

I should have kept this only to voting investigators. There are already too many spectators chipping in.

"
Welcome, Lord Redwain. Please partake of bread &
salt, and be seated,"
she says, efficiently, with a small gesture to the platter of bread &
salt by the entrance.

"
Now, back to business. House Marsten says aye. The motion passes."

[Septon Arlyn]

[url:3trc14ks]http:
//dragonsdance.
forumatic.
com/viewtopic.
php?f=189&
t=2531&
p=73739#p73739[/url:3trc14ks]

"
Then the ayes have it Lady Corinne."
for better or for ill. Amazing how the greenest thing I've done I accomplished by doing nothing. Septon Arlyn smiles to himself.

[size=200:3trc14ks] and do you think this is the honorable thing to do? To sit back and let the others take the blame for tensions igniting flames? What sort of example does this set for young Terren?

I will not let Terren down on this. I will speak against this measure and try to get those with votes to see the danger under the surface of this wording.

"
and yet I vote NAY!"
Septon Arlyn stands, "
my Lady Corinne, permission to approach the front of the tent?"
Septon Arlyn makes a sweeping gesture with his hands as he bows towards Lady Corinne.

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