Re: [D7, MA] Forming The Treaty (Open)

[Terren Dulver]

Terren will turn to the Septon and whisper back, still shocked at what had happened “My brother and Lady Corinne got into an argument and he simply left after saying his piece.” Terren remains silent for a few seconds, but then he gathers his bearings and add “I suggest you take the lead in the negotiation, I will primarily be keeping notes, as having me speak up too often may further antagonise Lady Marsten.”

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

After reading out the document aloud to the room, Corrine sets it down in front of her.

"
There is much merit to what is written here, and I thank House Drakeson and House Coldbrook for compiling it. However, some parts of it, I feel can be improved. I do not feel that there is need to send people to the Wall as a general matter of course. I feel that our remit includes punishment of the guilty, and so only those we have found guilty of crimes should be eligible for punishment. That having been said, I do think Ser Tyron Blackwood's crime warrants the Wall, and so I will gladly endorse that as his sentence. Ser Steffon Vance, I strongly insist, should be executed by beheading, and his two accomplices hanged. Ser Rufus was already executed by beheading by Ser Steffon, so we are unable to bring him to proper justice. It should still be made known that he was an accomplice in Lord Bryan Blackwood's and his Lady wife's murders. As for the mines, has it been determined that they do not contain hidden wildfire, as was previously suspected?"

[Septon Arlyn]

"
We throughly searched the mines after you left my Lady, and only traces of wildfyre residue was found in the mines. After the,"
Septon Arlyn winces, "
incident, at the green door inn, I had helped Lord Marsten, Ser Kevan, and Lucien in the caves. I believe Lord Marsten has it locked away in evidence. Waiting for the pryomancers from King's landing to help remove the substance back to kings landing where it can be safely stored away from any hands who would wish to use it for harm."


Taking a breath he continues, "
from the information I gained from the evaluation of the containers I determined it was an old cache, potentially left over from the days when the Hoare family ruled the riverlands. All of this information I shared with your husband and knight. The next day I followed up on these leads and discovered that the small folk rebellion had found this cache by following up on forgotten legends and myths and that they were not supplied with the wildfire from anyone within kings landing. This I am lead to. Believe from my investigations that there is no more unaccounted for wildfire on the loose."
unless the other investigators have secreted some away somewhere.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

"
Thank you, Septon. In that case, I would like to see these mines restored to working order as soon as possible, so that they can start producing revenue again for the Crown. Let us discuss how best to do that. I understand that funds are being provided to aid in the restoration."

[Septon Arlyn]

Terren will turn to the Septon and whisper back, still shocked at what had happened “My brother and Lady Corinne got into an argument and he simply left after saying his piece.” Terren remains silent for a few seconds, but then he gathers his bearings and add “I suggest you take the lead in the negotiation, I will primarily be keeping notes, as having me speak up too often may further antagonise Lady Marsten.”

gods, that boy will need to learn some patience. He spends too much time around the small folk and that Ser Garred has the penchant to teach him the crude ways of a solider rather then the courtesies of a Lord. Very well, if he wishes me to be the representative of House Dulver then I will do my best as a member of the Faith to serve honorably.

[Baelon Drakeson]

"
I can address some of the questions."


Baelon stands to address the room.

"
The mines are a simpler case, so I'll start with them. First, to answer Lady Corrine's question, House Drakeson will be lending some of our most experienced miners to the rebuilding effort, and to teach local miners some new techniques our miners, working with our Maester, developed to increase production and reduce the risk of mining accidents. Further, Lady Gwyneth will be reaching out to some of our merchant connections and purchasers of Drakeson iron to ensure that there are buyers ready and waiting for the Battle Valley iron. It is money, arms, and supplies that the crown needs, not unprocessed iron ore - and we have good reason to believe that there will soon be a rising demand for good steel, so it is imperative to have the production and distribution of ore ready as soon as possible."


"
To Master Yoren's question, I would merely remind him that the ownership of all five mines was determined as part of an earlier treaty, and suggest that altering that prior agreement is unnecessary and would probably lead to attempts to reclaim lost mines by force after we depart."


"
Which brings us to Ser Theomore's issue. I ask you all, what is our primary purpose here? Justice, or peace? I for one put the future peace and prosperity of the region above justice - and even more so above vengeance, a distinction that I fear may become lost if we let it. I think we can all agree that the best way to ensure a long-lasting peace is to prevent, as best as possible, the next generation of Blackwoods and Brackens from developing the blind hatred that fuels this feud. That means separating Lord Benjicot from Ser Tyron. While some, I have been told, would send Lord Benjicot away from his home and his remaining family, I think that would only give him more reason to hate, not less. Instead, we should remove the most hateful from Raventree Hall, and replace them with those who can teach that not all Brackens are murderers - a lesson he'll not get from Ser Tyron."


"
However, from what I have been told by those much more versed in the law than myself, the typical punishment for a nobleman - barring for murder of another nobleman or treason - is a mere fine. Hence the fine for Ser Tyron, who, from what I understand, has done nothing worse than property damage. To send him to the Wall - or anywhere else - for crimes that would normally only carry a fine would breed a level of resentment that I can only expect would be on par with Benjen Frey's - and we all know how that played out. In this case though, Ser Tyron would likely blame those he hates most - House Bracken - and attack them... which would no doubt be responded to in kind by House Bracken, and within mere weeks of our departure a new bout of fighting will have started."


"
Instead, we levy it as a punishment against both houses, and leave room for convincing Ser Tyron that his volunteering to go to the Wall is a benefit to his House and kin. That Ser Steffon has the chance to escape the executioner's blade as a result is a small price to pay for peace."


[OOC: I wasn't planning on being this involved with it IC, as they were OOC thoughts and ideas, but it's just easier this way rather than having another character act the mouthpiece for my ideas.]

[Yoren longshore]

"
You have not answered anything of the mines, you have onlyy avoided my question: What is to happen with the last three mines not accounted for by your document."


"
The law is simple, we can send them to the wall. We will settle our punishment to each person, we don't need to slither around the issues like a viper. We don't need any of your schemes, we can settle this like honest, proper people."
Yoren tells Baelon with mock in his voice.

[Kevan Lyras]

"
So, Ser Baelon, tell me if I understood you correctly: We agree that Ser Steffon deserves death as punishment for his crimes and you elaborately explained to us that Ser Tyron's crimes merely warrant a fine and then you follow that with a statement that we should send both of them to the wall, with Tyron volunteering to do it? And that is your idea of a fair treaty?!"


Kevan collects himself for a moment before continuing: "
I can understand your motives for getting Ser Tyron away from the young Lord and I have to agree that the idea has some merit. But Ser Steffon has to die otherwise this treaty becomes joke. He had a Lord of an influental house murdered! What kond of example is this to others if we let him choose the wall?"

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

"
Ser Kevan is right. Ser Steffon Vance must die. Let another Bracken go to the Wall, if you must have balance. I understand that both Lord Haig and Ser Wyll are also culpable for crimes."

[Theomore Tullison]

"
There is indeed the alternative to clarify that those who's lives are forfeit are ineligible to take the black to fulfill this requirement."
Theomore agrees. "
But there is no guarantee that Ser Tyron would be the one House Blackwood sends to the wall, if such is our motivation."


"
I should also like to point out that the fine as suggested, is a fine upon House Blackwood rather than Ser Tyron, he holds these lands in the name of Lord Blackwood, not in his own. It would be more prudent to set a fine upon his person. Otherwise, Ser Myles may simply recall him back to Raventree and appoint another to serve in his present capacity, and there will be no revenues to be fined at all."

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

"
So, it seems we should balance the weight of punishment, to aid peace, but we wish Ser Tyron removed from Lord Benjicot's presence, and Ser Steffon executed. How do we achieve these things together?"

[Septon Arlyn]

"
Exile Tyron blackwood,"
states Septon Arlyn simply.

[Yoren longshore]

"
Exile Tyron, Kill Vance and we don't need all of the talk of people talking the black."

[Baelon Drakeson]

"
You have not answered anything of the mines, you have onlyy avoided my question: What is to happen with the last three mines not accounted for by your document."


"
The law is simple, we can send them to the wall. We will settle our punishment to each person, we don't need to slither around the issues like a viper. We don't need any of your schemes, we can settle this like honest, proper people."
Yoren tells Baelon with mock in his voice.

"
Perhaps Master Yoren is as ignorant of the previous treaty as he is unable to maintain a civil tongue. I had assumed otherwise, but apparently I was wrong to do so. The ownership of the five mines is a matter of settled treaty and should not be disrupted needlessly. One mine belongs to House Bracken, the remaining four to House Blackwood. Repeating that in this judgement would be a waste of ink."


"
In regard to the law being simple - that is irrelevant. What good does it do to declare that Ser Tyron must go to the wall if he is willing to defy that, rightfully feeling unjustly punished, and instead attacks House Bracken, reigniting the feud. Some of us wish for peace and for a successful resolution of this investigation, not to provoke more fighting."

"
So, Ser Baelon, tell me if I understood you correctly: We agree that Ser Steffon deserves death as punishment for his crimes and you elaborately explained to us that Ser Tyron's crimes merely warrant a fine and then you follow that with a statement that we should send both of them to the wall, with Tyron volunteering to do it? And that is your idea of a fair treaty?!"


Kevan collects himself for a moment before continuing: "
I can understand your motives for getting Ser Tyron away from the young Lord and I have to agree that the idea has some merit. But Ser Steffon has to die otherwise this treaty becomes joke. He had a Lord of an influental house murdered! What kond of example is this to others if we let him choose the wall?"

Baelon ignores the incorrect title. He had known Kevan long enough to know that it was more likely a slip of the tongue than an insult.

"
Yes, Ser Kevan, a fair and just judgement. I have visited the wall;
it is no mercy to live and die there. Both men would be volunteers - as are all who take the black. Letting Ser Steffon do so would not make this treaty a joke, it would make this treaty a success. If giving up vengeance is the price of peace, it is a small and easily palatable price. What kind of example would it send? Hopefully that peace is better than vengeance, and thus perhaps make the next generation less prone to make the same mistakes as the present one. Blood for blood is exactly the attitude that has created this mess in the first place."

"
Ser Kevan is right. Ser Steffon Vance must die. Let another Bracken go to the Wall, if you must have balance. I understand that both Lord Haig and Ser Wyll are also culpable for crimes."

"
I am not aware of any crimes that Lord Haigh has committed? Perhaps you can enlighten me. Regardless, sending either man to the Wall would be a disaster. It would destabilize House Bracken, and no doubt they would blame House Blackwood, as they do for all their ills. That would lead to a resumption of violence. Further, leaving either House too weak would be to invite those neighbors with more greed than sense to become involved, each trying to carve out a piece of the Bracken or Blackwood pie. No, we must leave both houses intact."

"
There is indeed the alternative to clarify that those who's lives are forfeit are ineligible to take the black to fulfill this requirement."
Theomore agrees. "
But there is no guarantee that Ser Tyron would be the one House Blackwood sends to the wall, if such is our motivation."


"
I should also like to point out that the fine as suggested, is a fine upon House Blackwood rather than Ser Tyron, he holds these lands in the name of Lord Blackwood, not in his own. It would be more prudent to set a fine upon his person. Otherwise, Ser Myles may simply recall him back to Raventree and appoint another to serve in his present capacity, and there will be no revenues to be fined at all."

"
I doubt it would be too difficult to convince Ser Tyron, I think, as the alternative is to have his on be squired to Lord Haig - which Ser Tyron is likely to see as a death sentence for young Jojen. Men are often willing to suffer great harms to protect their children. Beyond that, who else would volunteer? Lord Benjicot? Too young. Ser Myles? Laughable to deprive Lord Benjicot of his regent. The only other candidate would be Ser Colyn Manderly. He may be willing to issue a challenge to defend his lord's honor at the drop of a hat, but I am doubtful that he would volunteer to leave his son and take the black for Ser Tyron. Even if he were, it would not likely be too difficult to convince him otherwise."


He pauses, thinking.

"
You may be right about the fine, though I would argue that being removed from his lands is a harsher punishment. Indeed, while lands held by landed knights are not always passed from father to son, it does seem typical - such as House Templeton."

"
So, it seems we should balance the weight of punishment, to aid peace, but we wish Ser Tyron removed from Lord Benjicot's presence, and Ser Steffon executed. How do we achieve these things together?"

"
Exile Tyron blackwood,"
states Septon Arlyn simply.

"
Exile Tyron, Kill Vance and we don't need all of the talk of people talking the black."

"
Foolishness. Exile carries all the problems of the Wall, and is less permanent - and thus less effective. Lady Corrine, if I thought there was a way to remove Ser Tyron justly and still execute Ser Steffon, I would support it wholeheartedly. Alas, I do not believe such a possibility exists."


His eyes scan the room, frowning.

"
Finally my lady, I would like to remind you that not all here have peace and your success as their highest priority. Some may be motivated by family ties, by greed, or even just to see you fail - for political or personal reasons. I urge you to consider what might be motivating each who speak.... including myself, of course."
He adds the last bit with a wry smile.

EDIT: adjusted formatting.

[Davain Bartheld]

"
I agree with Yoren. If the accused wish to take the black than we should allow it, but if the man doesn't wish to receive redemption than we should not force it. Ser Steven and Arren should be executed for the crimes they committed. Ser Tyron should be exiled. Salting of fields is an act of war and by attempting to incite war he should be sent away from these lands. My only concern is with Ser Humphrey Piper. The man commited an act of banditry and we are simply fining him! What message does that show if men can become bandits and only receive a slap on the wrist for there crimes. I say he should be stripped of his titles and sentenced to death. At the very least take a hand, but if we are here to ensure the king's peace than we cannot stand to tolerate those turned bandit."

[Septon Arlyn]

"
Lord Drakeson,"
replies Septon Arlyn firmly, "
Now I do believe that you are well intentioned in your reminders to Lady Corrine, however, your statements assume that every other house in this room is working their own agenda, I believe we are all here to promote peace, for if this treaty fails it will look bad on all signatories of this treaty."


"
Exile is a less harsh then sending him to the wall. However if we combine exile with his son being Lord Haigs squire, with the option of Ser Tyron Blackwood taking the black with Jojen Blackwood growing up alongside Lord Blackwood. With this set of options Ser Tryon might be more motivated to comply with our wishes for Ser Tyron Blackwood to take the Black. Elsewise if we just impose a fine? Then House Blackwood would pay the fine and Ser Tryon would not be removed. It might be that Ser Tryon would antagonize Lord Haig Bracken to kill his son, just so he could be justified in starting a new war with the Brackens as he would be able to lead the charge against the Brackens. If we have Ser Tyron Blackwood sent to the Stepstones in exile, then he would be incapable to imitate retaliation towards the Brackens, depriving him of the vengeance he would so desperately seek.

But Lord Backen is a Honorable man, this morning he just agreed to 7 years of non aggression towards the Blackwoods. Ser Tyron Blackwood is the man who done the most to further this feud, thus, he should be removed from the Blackwood and Bracken's vicinity. Either permanently towards the wall, or at minimum of ten years to the Stepstones or until he has earned enough there to pay back the damages he has caused to House Bracken and House Darry, whichever comes later."


"
Ser Steffon Vance should meet the Stranger for his crimes, with the option to take the black if he so desires."

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

"
No!"
Corrine urges firmly, her fist banging the table. "
He is a murderer, who deprived a child of his parents, and killed others to cover it up. I will countenance nothing but death for him."

[Theomore Tullison]

And this boy speaks of Ser Walton as a man lacking diplomacy, Theomore hides his amusement behind a grave and collected face and tone. That the Coldbrooks allowed him to come at all was a choice they might learn to regret, and he himself likely having no need of making it happen should he be so inclined.

"
I believe I can speak for many in this room by stating that in the eyes of the throne, the Blackwood assassination is the most serious charge we are dealing with here, the one act that will linger further in memory than any of the others. To allow Ser Steffon to serve as tribute to the night's watch alongside a man who's crimes are considerably less heinous, indeed, Ser Steffon we seem to be in agreement that he deserves to be given over to the headsman, while Ser Tyron you submit that his actions are merely deserving of a fine."
Theomore takes a pause to compose his thoughts. "
That will neither serve justice or peace. If it as you say, my lord, that sending Lord Haig or Ser Wyll to the wall is something we ought not to do, then it follows that we cannot add the stipulation that each house must provide a knight to serve the night's watch. And if we desire to remove Ser Tyron from Blackwood lands, then we must find some other way to do it, if that is what securing the peace demands of us."

[Yoren longshore]

At Baelons commen Yoren informs him.
"
I know of treaties, but I also know fully well that you have yet to tell me: What do you propose of the last three mines? One plus one still leaves three. Also previous agreements are null when the clauses are broken. Simple law, clauses nulls any agreement. Also I find the wildfire that you promised to find us to be sorely lacking, perhaps you hid it away yourself then?"

[Baelon Drakeson]

Baelon sighs.

"
Yes, Septon, that is what I am saying. Indeed, we all have our own agendas. Some of them happen to align, or have more or less the same end result. Some do not. I am not saying this as an insult to anyone, merely a statement of fact. We all have our own perspectives and influences. Many here have family ties to one house or the other. Many, including myself, fought alongside one side or the other. Some may simply have their own ideas of what justice is, or how best to make peace. Others care more about their own self-interests or politics than either of those. If we all agreed on everything, this meeting would not be necessary, now would it?"


He shakes his head.

"
Getting back to the issue of Ser Tyron. Exile is less severe than sending to the Wall, but still far more severe than legal precedent would suggest is just. It was property damage. A crime, yes, but far from anything worthy of exile or the Wall. With respect, Lord Davain, Ser Tyron's crimes were a product of this feud, not a cause of it. If we were to punish all of the offenders by that standard, we would depopulate the region."

"
No!"
Corrine urges firmly, her fist banging the table. "
He is a murderer, who deprived a child of his parents, and killed others to cover it up. I will countenance nothing but death for him."

"
Yes, he is, and I would not wish to teach the young Lord Benjicot that the only reprisal is death. We speak of peace, yet choose bloodshed over it. If we cannot choose peace, how can we ever expect Bracken and Blackwood to do so? If we wish to teach them peace we must show them peace. Not bloodshed, not vengeace. They know those already."

And this boy speaks of Ser Walton as a man lacking diplomacy, Theomore hides his amusement behind a grave and collected face and tone. That the Coldbrooks allowed him to come at all was a choice they might learn to regret, and he himself likely having no need of making it happen should he be so inclined.

"
I believe I can speak for many in this room by stating that in the eyes of the throne, the Blackwood assassination is the most serious charge we are dealing with here, the one act that will linger further in memory than any of the others. To allow Ser Steffon to serve as tribute to the night's watch alongside a man who's crimes are considerably less heinous, indeed, Ser Steffon we seem to be in agreement that he deserves to be given over to the headsman, while Ser Tyron you submit that his actions are merely deserving of a fine."
Theomore takes a pause to compose his thoughts. "
That will neither serve justice or peace. If it as you say, my lord, that sending Lord Haig or Ser Wyll to the wall is something we ought not to do, then it follows that we cannot add the stipulation that each house must provide a knight to serve the night's watch. And if we desire to remove Ser Tyron from Blackwood lands, then we must find some other way to do it, if that is what securing the peace demands of us."

"
Justice is served by the listed punishments. Peace is served by allowing - or rather, strenuously encouraging - them to take the black. I am sure there are any number of murderers at the wall already, as well as those of lesser crimes. Neither man would be out of place there. Could you explain though, your comment about Lord Haig and Ser Wyll? I do not see how it being a bad idea to remove the lord or heir of a house also means it is a bad idea to remove a knight - particularly proven criminals. The loss of a single knight, even one of position, is nowhere near as damaging to the house as losing it's head or heir."

At Baelons commen Yoren informs him.
"
I know of treaties, but I also know fully well that you have yet to tell me: What do you propose of the last three mines? One plus one still leaves three. Also previous agreements are null when the clauses are broken. Simple law, clauses nulls any agreement. Also I find the wildfire that you promised to find us to be sorely lacking, perhaps you hid it away yourself then?"

Baelon stares baffled at Yoren. Could he really be so daft, or was he just trying to argue for the sake of it?

"
This document does nothing to alter the previous treaty. It would still stand. This document does nothing to those three mines. They would continue as they have for years. Only the revenue from the two two mines mentioned - and only for a handful of years - would be affected. After that time, all would return to the terms of the old treaty. As for the wildfire... are you not remembering the attack on the Green Door Inn? The wildfire that was found in the caves? Septon Arlyn just spoke about it. Do you not recall that we searched for the wildfire together? If I had found it to take it, you would already know about it."

[Yoren longshore]

"
As has been stated: That wildfire has been there a long time, and was found by folklore, didn't you argue that it has been recently moved? That seems like a contradiction to me... The treaty was nulled before we arrived, by the violence. Nobody reinstated it after the violence. You could easily have led me on a goosechase, before finding it yourself. Either we take all the mines and close it, or this treaty won't last a week. They will fight over them."


Yoren then turns to the rest of the room asking: "
Why is he here? Just to argue everything and anything all else agree on? Let this viper do his tricks to try to trick us to leave important things out of the treaty?"

[Kevan Lyras]

Kevan looked at Lady Corrine, Ser Theomore as well as Yoren and the Septon, before he spoke up again:
"
We clearly have different opinions on various topics, but from what I hear from the investigators present, ut seems a majority is for a death sentence for Ser Steffon. If this is argued, we should do a quick voting on the topic and move on..."

[Theomore Tullison]

"
What seems clear to me, Lord Baelon, is that Ser Steffon cannot serve House Bracken as the knight to take the black if both houses are to provide one, which leaves Lord Haig and Ser Wyll, and Ser Tyron is of Lord Blackwood's blood."
Theomore wonders if he might get his wish come true with this argument, but no matter. "
The argument can be made that the feud itself warrants that a male member of high rank from each house is to take the black, while no such man specifically can be said to have committed such crimes to call for this punishment. And given that House Blackwood lost it's lord to assassination at the hands of men under Lord Haig's command, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he might have to go there, as the more obvious candidate out of him and his son in my eyes."


"
Will this serve peace? Harsh punishment breeds resentment, that is true, but it also serves as discouragement to act upon that resentment. The question here, I think, is this: will it be better for the peace to have both Ser Tyron and Lord Haig removed or to have them both remain? I know little of Ser Tyron's influence upon the rest of his house to say if removing it will heal more than the removal of Lord Haig will hurt. Perhaps one among us could be so kind as to elaborate upon the man's character and sway?"

[Septon Arlyn]

"
Lord Baelon has a close personal friendship with Lord Bracken, perhaps he can speak to Lord Backens character? If he were to remain in charge of House Bracken would he attempt to perpetuate this feud. I know that he has promised his word for non-aggression towards the Blackwoods for seven years, and to me he seems an honorable enough man. Unless you have some other evidence to present to the treaty committee here on the contrary."
Septon Arlyn asks with honest curiosity, nothing malicious in his tone.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

"
We likewise cannot teach the younger generation that murder is forgiveable,"
Corrine says, darkly. "
Ser Steffon must die for his crimes. It is not an impediment to peace to bring rightful justice to the guilty. If you push the matter, Lord Drakeson, you will find yourself outnumbered. Remember that you are not eligible to vote on this treaty."


[ooc: edited for clarification.]

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