Re: Mechanical discussion

[Jon Cobb]

Well... I didn't expect to create contention. I was just trying to be helpful

I can only give the interpretation we use in our game, based on the rules and comments made in the old forums and you can decide how you feel.

I realize now, that I am in error under RAW because we do something the rules only force NCs to do. We force PCs to keep their Dispostions just like NCs.

You see...

At the beginning of an intrigue, all participants must set their starting disposition. The default is indifferent when dealing with new characters, but player characters are free to choose whatever disposition they like.

Which means, no matter how many Charm Intrigues a PC or NC wins against me, I can technically set my Disposition to Indifferent at the start of the very next Intrigue. So if Nathan wins a Charm Intrigue with Jon Cobb and I get him to friendly, he will be friendly with Nathan, but only till the very next Intrigue (which could be seconds later) and which point he is free to set his Disposition to whatever he wants again.

So, in order to be fair (and realistic) Disposition should be sticky for PCs as well as NCs. If and NC with Magnetic manages to win an Intrigue and increase a PC's disposition from Unfriendly to Affectionate, it's hardly fair that the PC can choose to start the very next Intrigue at Unfriendly again if they wish. It negates the entire previous intrigue (other than the bonus test die).

...

However... since we are all PCs in this game... and we are all following RAW... I guess there is no point now for Friendship Intrigues between PCs... since we are free to choose whatever Disposition we like at the very next Intrigue.

And now I think you're taking things too far in the other direction! :;
): Your quote above ignores the next paragraph in that section:

The choice of disposition should always be based on what the character knows about their opponent, past encounters with the Narrator character, and their feelings regarding the character's behavior.

IMO, this applies in to PC vs. PC interaction as well, for the simple reason that the rules generally assume that you're playing a traditional game where it's the PCs acting against the NCs. So they very seldom directly adress a situation where PCs are interacting with PCs. That in no way necessarily leads to the conclusion that PC vs. PC interaction is exempt from the rules of the game.

So, if Nathan defeats Jon in an intrigue using Charm, not only will the full benefits of that win apply (+1 disposition step, +1D to our next intrigue), but Jon is also bound by the fact that the consequences of defeat state that his improved disposition should last until something happens to worsen his disposition again. Even if you won using Bargain (which doesn't affect disposition at all), if I voluntarily move my disposition to Amiable before the end of the intrigue, then it would be very poor form of me to worsen that disposition the next time we intrigue, unless something turns up that should make Jon more negative towards Nathan in the meantime (perhaps I found out that you sold me some shoddy goods, for instance).

Edit: Took me a while to finish the post, and then I find we all seem to be largely in agreement!

[Nathaniel Mason]

Edit: Took me a while to finish the post, and then I find we all seem to be largely in agreement!

But this is a forum! When have people agreeing in a forum ever been a reason to stop debating!

[Theomore Tullison]

Disposition is quite simply what your character feels towards another at the snapshot of intrigue start. Evolving disposition allows characters to adjust this at the start of each exchange if something warrants this. Shield of Reputation improves disposition, as does defeat by charm or seduction.

My general way of looking at things is:
-Would my character be willing to help the other character without asking or expecting anything in return? If yes, how far is he willing to go?
-Would my character be willing to hurt the other character if given the opportunity without asking or expecting anything in return? If yes, how far is he willing to go?

From a PC perspective, I find it a bit difficult to deal with things like magnetic in-so-far as affectionate is defined as "
willing to die for you"
which is pretty far out of character for Theomore to be, for example. He'll like you, yes, and enjoy being in your company. And probably do you favors. But affectionate disposition will revert to friendly or amiable rather quickly. Disposition is too shallow to govern PC actions IMO. My general view of intrigue is that it's a mechanical way of making other characters do things that they ordinarily wouldn't. Disposition plays a part, and if you intrigue Theomore with friendship as goal, and you win, then you have Theomore as a friend in the making. Which means he'll be willing to help you out if you need it, at least so long as he doesn't have to take any risks. Die for you? Nah.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Yar...what friendship means to a character varies quite a bit sometimes. That's a deep-set personality trait, not easily changed by just one or two conversations, regardless of how charming you might be.

It seems like a general disposition could be changed via intrigue, but how a character expresses 'amiability' or 'friendship' is still up to the player (or GM), and may or may not be exactly what the intrigue-perpetrator had in mind.

[Yoren longshore]

I believe that disposition may be a powerfull tool, if used correctly. The thing with qualities like atractive is that they are very short term. Men will usually be more willing to talk to good looking females, and to be more willing to do small favors. However if these favors are not reciprocreated, or if the woman is very shallow, my attitude will shortly change to more reluctant to assist than what i was before...
I also feel that you have to try to not abuse the system by hating everyone, that will quicly turn boring and unrealistic...

[Theomore Tullison]

Hating everyone also makes your rolls suck, unless you're a deceitful spiteful piece of shit....but who the heck would want to stick around that sort of character for long enough to resolve an intrigue though?

[Jon Cobb]

I find that if one examines the descriptions of the dispositions closely, it becomes clear that they're all written the same way - the first sentence describes how you feel about your opposite number, and the rest is examples of who typically feels this way and how those feelings might express themselves. The most important part is therefore the first sentence, and the rest are RP aids.

So, if Theomore is driven to become Affectionate through an intrigue, he should definitely play himself as per the first sentence, but if he's not the kind to give his life for anyone, he wouldn't have to now either. But he should be prepared to sacrifice something that's (almost) as dear to him as life itself for the character he feels Affectionate toward.

[Reader]

Dispositions should be fairly persistent and sensible - they can change through time, not just intrigue.

Jon Cobb sees it a similar way to my reading.

If anyone thinks someone else is meta-gaming, let me know and I'll slap them down.

Remember, you can take frustration and then quit/offer to yield. You'll notice lots of yield offers from narrator characters - I encourage similar from PCs.

Intrigue isn't mind-control, but it should have some effect.

[Yoren longshore]

Soo, I was just wondering about the talk I have with dunstan and ben, may we go to visit the tullys, or does that take 2 timeslots?

[Dunstan Tullison]

We will have to do that during day 2 in another time slot.

[Yoren longshore]

Oki, I just needed to know if we could before I did my in character bit:)

[Loreia]

Do Frustration and Intrigue Defense reset after the resolution of an intrigue?

[Theomore Tullison]

Presumably you mean composure.

And yes, they do. Only the consequences of defeat sticks.

[Baelon Drakeson]

[url=http:
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php?p=3539#p3539:1cr7mrse]Subject: [D1, EA] Forging New Links (closed)[/url:1cr7mrse]

Action: [url=Assist Ben][/url]: 6d6k4 17
Results: + 2 to Ben's roll

OoC: Do I add Ellie's disposition bonus to her assist roll? and does her assist count for Ben's above roll or next? Do degrees of success matter on the assist results?

1. Does Ellie's disposition affect her assist roll?
The way the section on dispositions is written, it simply states "
Disposition also interacts with your efforts at Deception and Persuasion, by providing bonuses or imposing penalties to your test results."
Arguably, they should only apply to checks being made against the subject of the disposition;
it is unclear who the 'target' of the assist action is - the person you are assisting, or the person you are assisting them against? So the question is: if a disposition applies in this case, would it be Ellie's disposition towards Ben or Ellie's disposition towards Maester Haelis? The first line of the disposition section reads "
A disposition describes a particular outlook as it relates to a character’s opponent"
implies that you only have an occurent disposition towards your opponent, not your allies (or your opponent's allies for that matter).

The way the rules are written, I would say yes, her disposition against Maester Haelis would apply. However, there is considerable greyness in this interpretation.

2. Which of Ben's rolls does it affect?
Per the assist action, "
a modifier to your ally’s next conflict test result"
(emphasis added). Everything applies chronologically. Well, except Destiny Points, but those are special.

3. Is the result affected by DoS?
Per the assist action, "
you can lend one half your Persuasion rank (round down) as a modifier"
it is a static bonus, so DoS past the first have no effect.

[Benedict Marsten]

Thanks Baelon!

[Loreia]

Hey, so Animal Cohort is required for having an animal that can fight and give you a bonus in Fighting tests, but can your pet make ability tests not related to fighting? I would like my dog's passive awareness to an affect in gameplay. Can we use hound stats?

[Reader]

Animals can be used occasionally, but for guard duties etc, MAYBEa small assist on hunting rolls. I don't want to devalue the skills other people spent XP on (dog can't help on little birds/intrigue awareness tests, but can use its passive awareness 14 to guard your tent etc).

[Loreia]

Okay, I like that.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Just curious if you allow the Empathy specialty for 'Read Target'. It's not RAW but most do.

[Theomore Tullison]

I'd say it's RAW, ability chapter says that you do, intrigue chapter only says awareness roll.

[Nathaniel Mason]

I agree it should be used. (Not that I necessarily have it). When I say it's not RAW, I mean it's not RAW by the text of the Intrigue Action.

Edit: After re-reading the Ability section, the Empathy test only give you "
general disposition toward you or the topic of your conversation"
with more information based on your number of success.

That test (which is a free action that can be used at any time) is not a Read target, because it would not give you any mechanical bonus in an Intrigue. (the +1D till end of Intrigue) and DoS has no bearing.

Not that I am arguing it shouldn't apply

[Theomore Tullison]

Not the only place where GR forgot what they wrote in other parts of the book, sadly.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Not the only place where GR forgot what they wrote in other parts of the book, sadly.

Right you are there... and not well organized either. I have always hated the fact I need to have three different sections open when constructing a Warfare unit.

[Baelon Drakeson]

They are, as far as I can tell, not intended to be the same thing.

Empathy Specialty section:
A free action, gets a general gist of an attitude, nothing specific. Enough to know whether someone sees you favorably or will get angry at you for bringing up a specific topic - without actually bringing it up and thus having the person actually react.

Intrigue chapter:
Read Target is much more in depth, takes time (and thus carries an opportunity cost), but gets you more information and a (significant) mechanical bonus.

As written the Read Target action does not use empathy bonus dice, nor is this in contradiction with the specialties section.

Of course, that doesn't mean that it makes sense...

[Jon Cobb]

IMO, just because a specialty isn't explicitly mentioned for a particular type of action, doesn't mean it cannot be used for that action. The Using Specialties section on p. 54 of the GoT rulebook states:

Whenever you test an ability, and it's a situation where your specialty applies, roll a number of dice...

The sub-heading Specialties &
Passive Tests also says:

Whenever an opponent rolls a test against your passive test result, you may add the number of bonus dice from a specialty that most closely applies to your passive test result.

In other words, the default is that you can use a specialty for any test where it might reasonably apply. Using Empathy for the Read Target action or Reputation for the Shield of Reputation are obvious candidates, IMO. Similarly, Strength bonus dice should apply to Knockdown, for instance.

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