[D8,EA]Peace for our time (Closed)

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth is back in the library, awaiting Nathan's arrival. He's found a quiet corner where they can talk discreetly when he arrives, and is killing time carrying on the search for Ser Jorah's book.

(OOC: which I'll roll for at the end of the thread, assuming it's actually needed. He may have the required successes already, I'm not sure. If he has, Daveth is browsing for his own interest instead.)

[Nathaniel Mason]

Nathan arrives at Daveth's table carrying several books, mostly on architecture and one on aqueducts. He smiles warmly at the young man. "
Good to see you Daveth. I got your note. I hope things are going well with you?"

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth smiles back. "
Good to see you, too, Nathan. A mix of good and bad, all told, but on average, I think I've got nothing to complain about, certainly compared with some. And yourself? I hear the Bartheld situation is being resolved amicably after all, which is presumably quite the relief to you."
a crooked smile. "
I feel I made a tactical error suggesting negotiations to Lord Davain. There's a lesson there about presenting a reasonable solution to a reasonable man. For, with the idea, what need has such a man of a middle-man? Maybe if I had presented the idea first to Ser Fendrel, I would now have quite the diplomatic achievement to my name, without much work even being required."
a shrug. "
Still, I can't be selfish. The end result was good, which is the most important thing."

[Nathaniel Mason]

"
I am glad the situation was resolved without escalating further, and I am, of course, happy with the result. Ser Fendrel's objections, while inflated for his benefit, were not without some merit. My hope is that Davain's upcoming marriage will smooth off some of his rough edges."


"
How about you Daveth? Has the tournament been beneficial to House Coldbrook?"

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth thinks for a moment, then nods. "
I'd say so."


He sits back in his chair, casting a glance around him to make sure they can't be overheard. "
I did however invite you here for more than just a catch-up. Firstly, I wanted to check something: I've heard you raise your voice in support of the Queen's faction, but I also remember you singing a song calling for peace. Would I be wrong in believing that you engage in factional politics merely out of necessity, and that song reflects your true desire?"

[Nathaniel Mason]

Nathan sat back in his chair in thought. "
I think the Queen is right in this. At least right now, at this moment. I have nothing against female leaders. There are just as many good and bad female leaders as there are male. The fact that the practice of first born inheritance has worked well for so long in Dorne has shown that it is not as disastrous as some people would like us to believe. To be honest, I think leadership should be based on merit rather than something as arbitrary as birth or gender, but I doubt you would find many throughout the nobility of any of the Kingdoms willing to entertain such an idea."


"
My problem is the precedent it sets. What laws apply to the King applies to the Kingdom. If the Princess is confirmed as ruler, what about all the other Houses? Will those Lords who have older sisters step down in their favour? Will those Heirs who have been raised with the expectation of inheriting blithely step aside in favour of their older sisters? If you may think we have the potential for a war now, imagine the chaotic mess we will have if the rules of inheritance were to suddenly change overnight. Some Houses would be split at a stroke. It's already happening. Look at the Bartheld situation, and Fendrel is not the worst. There are some Heirs that would eliminate their potential rivals before there was any chance of being displaced."


"
However, that said, regardless of my opinion, or the consequences of such a social change, what I fear most is the cost in blood should this escalate further. If this goes to a war, many nobles will die, but thousands, perhaps tens of thousands or smallfolk on both sides will shed blood or lose their lives to try to decide this, if it is decided. That is my biggest problem with the Princess. She puts her personal ambitions ahead of the lives of her people, which is never a good quality in a leader."


"
Ultimately, I don't care which sits on that monstrosity of a throne so long as they leave the smallfolk in peace. I guarantee that the farmer or crofter will never notice the difference, but they might notice if their fields are burnt, their houses destroyed or their sons are dead."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth's mouth quirks into a small smile at Nathan's last line. "
Yes, I imagine they might indeed notice."
he replies, dryly.

"
Still, at the risk of getting somewhat sidetracked from my own point, you make a number of statements that I feel should be engaged with, for you appear to have been mislead.

"
Firstly, define 'merit'. There is no such thing as a man or woman who is good at everything. Take myself and my brother as an example - we are both good men, who mean well. If military merit matters most, my brother is by far the better man - my own *mother* is a more capable combatant than I am. If diplomacy and administration are more meritorious traits, then I am. And do the pre-eminent traits vary according to the circumstances of the house? Or are they applied evenly to all, uncaring of personal circumstances? Whatever you say, I can guarantee there will be arguments and feuds, probably worse than now. After all, it is a matter of record which child was born first. It is frequently harder to judge which child is smarter, or even a better general, many times.

"
Secondly, you claim that what laws apply to the King apply to the kingdom. This is false."
he looks around again before carrying on in a quieter voice. "
Most prominently, no house other than the royal one practices marrying direct kin, even those within houses descended from them. House Targaryan has always had its own rules, which do not apply to the houses beneath it.

"
Thirdly, you place the entirety of the blame at the Princess's door. While I consider neither side blameless, I consider this also incorrect. The king named Princess Rhaenyra as his heir, despite significant opposition from those who took the outcome of the Great Council of 101 as determining that no female could inherit the Iron Throne. He was so determined about this that he eventually dismissed his own Hand, Ser Otto Hightower, since he could not accept it, so it is not some passing fancy.

"
Also, he fully has the right to declare his own heir. Actually, pretty much all lords do, at least if there is any ambiguity in the situation. If they wish to, they may place conditions on inheritance, or even pass over particular offspring entirely. To my mind, the current situation is well within the 'ambiguity threshold' where the King's desires should hold dominance over the various conflicting claims.

"
Anyway, point being that it is the Queen who is attempting to use an appeal to Andal traditions, which have never applied to the Targaryans, to support her pressuring her husband into changing his named heir. It is the Queen whose personal ambitions kicked off this whole affair."


Throughout, Daveth's tone has been calm and quiet. Laying out the facts, rather than passionate defending a position. Having done so, he shrugs, and leans back slightly. "
Of course, I'm Black, so it's up to you if you believe me or not, since I quite clearly am not an unbiased source. Still, if you don't, you're well read, so it's well within your capabilities to confirm everything I've claimed. I'm confident that it will hold up under scrutiny."


(OOC: Phew! I hope that's all factually correct. Anything there that's a 'lie' is actually a 'mistake' - let me know, and I'll correct.)

[Nathaniel Mason]

"
So you hold that the Targaryens should be an exception to the laws of the land. If they are, then why has there never been a first born daughter made ruler before this. You may say that Andal inheritance holds no sway over the Targaryens, but up till now they have certainly followed it in practice.

This is not the first time the Targaryens have squabbled for power amongst themselves. When Aenys I died his son Aegon would have succeeded him, this despite having an older sister Rhaena. Of course neither did. His uncle Maegor seized the throne with the help of his mother the Dowager Queen. Rhaena went into hiding, Aegon died trying to claim the throne that should have been his, and Maegor tortured their younger brother Viserys to death. It was only when the entire realm rose up against Maegor in support of Jaehaerys, the next rightful inheritor, that the matter was finally settled."


"
I am also unconvinced that the Targaryens are an exception, though they like to think so. Oh, they certainly hold the biggest stick in the form of dragons;
and up till now no-one has deigned to challenge them their... eccentricities, but I think you will find that will not be the case this time. Even if they are an exception, what does that mean? If they are an exception to this law, are they an exception to all laws? Can they murder with impunity, steal with impunity, rape with impunity? Why would they be an exception to one law and not all... and if they are, what does it say about us as a society."


"
It is this exception that is the problem. If our good King wished to change the law, he has every right to do so, or at least try. He is the King. He could wave his hand tomorrow and change the law, but he knows we would have civil war the next day, so he tries to use the Targaryen exception to get what he wants without bloodshed, but all he will accomplish is delaying it."


"
If he truly wanted to change the law and culture of Westeros, he could have married the Princess to a Prince of Dorne and declared the product of their union as first inheritor regardless of gender. There is legal precedent for that and it would have given Westeros a generation or more to get used to idea. That, of course, would never happen because it would eventually lead to someone with minimal Targaryen blood ties sitting on the Iron Throne. The strength and purity of the Targaryen blood is the reason they all marry each other in the first place."


"
Whether the Targaryens consider themselves exceptions or not is unimportant. History has shown that the realm will not tolerate any ruler they consider illegitimate. It may be that neither side will sit upon the Iron Throne for very long, and peace will only come when we have our own Jaehaerys. The only question will be, how much time has passed or blood has been spilled before then."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
The question as to why there has never been a female ruler is an interesting one. Given a couple of years free from my duties, I'm sure I could write an interesting book on the subject. Like many things, I believe it to be a confluence of many different factors. For one, it's much rarer for a woman to have the capabilities needed for leadership than it is a man, and frankly, *that's* rarer than it should be. But arguably more influential is convenience - the Targaryens *can* buck Andal tradition, but that doesn't mean they do so without cost. In any martial context, women have to prove their worth thoroughly before they're accepted - and that's the same, from a humble guardswoman up to the queen herself. This is something the king is well aware of, and yet he remains firm in his decision, so I believe it must be with good reason.

"
I am curious at your taking such exception to the Targaryens having different laws applied to them, though. Lords and commoners have such different rights and responsibilities that they might as well live in different lands, why should the royal family not be permitted to go a step farther?

"
King Maegor the Cruel gives us an ideal example of what happens when a king acts without *any* regard for law or decency, pushing the 'exception', as you put it, too far - his banners abandon him and he is killed by an unknown hand, maybe even his own. Or perhaps that of one of his Kingsguard. Like many things, it's not absolute - what, how, why, all these factor in. For a king, with good knowledge of all those involved, to declare one child heir over another is well within the bounds of reason to my eyes.

"
As for your predictions, you may be right. Or you may not. But until the war actually breaks out, I won't give up hoping and trying to avert it. So what I want to ask you is: are you confident that war is inevitable? Or is there still enough hope and idealism under all that cynicism and knowledge to consider that maybe, just maybe, if the right pebble is in the right place, one faction might back down before war is joined?"

[Nathaniel Mason]

"
Laws are not simply handed down from the King or words on a page. They are the embodiment of what we as a society consider acceptable behavior. Is it right, for example, that Maegor tortured his fifteen year old nephew to death with impunity? He may have eventually been deposed, but it was not for justice of that murder. Now, laws can evolve just as society evolves, but justice should apply to all equally. The fact Maegor was allowed to sit on the Iron Throne at all was a crime, and not just because he breached the laws of inheritance."


"
As far as the current situation, I admit I do not hold much hope. There is little room for negotiation or compromise. No real common ground;
and those involved are loathe to even suffer being in the same room with each other. Only one can sit on the Iron Throne. Unless one or the other were to relinquish their claim, the conflict will only lead to bloodshed. The King may wish the Princess to follow him, but I have yet to see a man enforce his wishes after he was dead. If he truly wanted to resolve this situation, he should step down now in favour of the Princess and use his remaining years to support and enforce his will. I have no doubts in my mind that if he waits till he dies it will be too late."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth ponders for a few moments. "
I think we will end up just agreeing to disagree on this point. I just can't see a society where a king and a pig farmer are equal under the law as being a functional one. Their worlds are just so different. It's like applying the same standards of merit to all inheritance issues, it just doesn't account for the different circumstances of the people involved. What you present is a very clean and clear, black and white world. And to me, the world just doesn't work that way. It's complex, messy, and filled with shades of grey. And any attempt to make it otherwise is doomed to failure and destruction against the shores of human nature itself.

"
I do not consider myself wiser than our King in this matter, so I will not comment on what he should do, but I do absolutely agree with one of your statements. Unless one or the other were to relinquish their claim, the conflict *will* only lead to bloodshed. Though honestly, it's not that war that scares me the most. It's the one that will happen immediately afterwards that really concerns me - the one where our foreign foes take advantage of our weakened state to tear strips off our land, and domestic resentments rise up, potentially causing the collapse of the kingdom, resulting in a collection of petty kingdoms locked into perpetual war with each other for petty reasons. *That*'s the future that has me waking up in a cold sweat at night, particularly since my House is right on the border. Because you're right, whoever sits on the throne, not much will actually significantly change."
he pauses, brow furrowing "
Unless the reason the King is so insistent is that he believes Aegon will be the next Maegor, but let's not assume that.

"
Anyway, yes. One side must relinquish their claim for conflict to be avoided. And the only reason I can see they would do that would be if they felt their chances of victory were slim enough that they didn't want to risk their life over it. Seem like a reasonable conclusion to you?"

[Nathaniel Mason]

Nathan rises, closing his books. "
My friend, as you may have gathered, I have a passion for history. This is not the first struggle within the royal family for the Iron Throne. There have been many, and I doubt that it will be the last. In that time some claimants have succeeded, some have failed at the cost of their lives, and some were murdered before they could press their claim. In all that time, I cannot think of a single one that backed down. Perhaps this time will be different... but I wouldn't bet any money on it."


With a wry smile and a bow, Nathan leaves.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth nods back at Nathan. "
Good fortune to you, Nathan."


After the young man has left, Daveth lets out a small sigh. "
Alright. Alone then."
he says quietly to himself.

He looks down at the small pile of books he was collecting for Ser Jorah's research, and idly pats one on the cover. "
Sorry."
he whispers quietly, before gathering himself up and going through the usual routine of bothering Pate the scribe to assist him in 'cataloguing a new subject' and doing his own research.

[url=Persuade Pate the Scribe to Help (TN9)][/url]: 4d6 11
[url=Research for Ser Jorah in Library (TN12)][/url]: 4d6 11 (Oof! So close.)
And to reduce the load on Reader, since I'm well familiar with what the roll is by now:
[url=Rolling for Pate's research in library (TN12)][/url]: 4d6 12 (Woo. +1 success.)

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