Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Septon Arlyn]

I would have preferred to make that speech IC to you both, but as things move by speed of PBP I had some RL rear is head. So I made that speech to Ben, assuming that he would pass on what I said to you. He posted about him being disturbed by my words and I've already made a post to clarify my meaning (if Ben asks me to)

Nathan, as far as marriages go, it's completely IC to request a marriage be brokered between two houses to tie them closer together. Normally marriages between nobles are used to cement alliances or treaties, which is what we are trying to accomplish here

As far as stopping the cycle of violence... Septon Arlyn does not know about your plans for Lord Haig, and just as he is trying to remove Benji from being corrupted by hate, so to would he want to remove Wyl. Maybe it could be a Compromise of sorts. For knowledge is the best way to combat fear, and fear is what leads to hate. Maybe if the two heirs to the houses spend time together in a cyclical fashion, getting to know each other we could perhaps stop the hate from spreading. Maybe for 3 months out of every year they both spend time together developing a friendship in a distant place away from the Blackwood's and the Bracken's. Maybe kings landing, or winter fell, or the manderlies seat. Something that would develop into a long lasting relationship and hopefully stave off war for a generation.

That might be foolishness because of OOC knowledge that there is going to be a war anyways, but IC I think that it might have some merits

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Thing is, forcing him away from his family could actually breed resentment. And bad influences exist outside of those two houses. I really wish that House Dulver would stop obsessing over Benjicot and see that there are other, better ways to foster peace. He's a lord now. If he doesn't want to go, then he doesn't have to. Ser Myles is a good man, and reasonable. Corrine believes he'll be fair and look after his nephew. She's going to be talking with him about that anyway, but she is confident that Ser Myles is similarly fed up with the feud, and can be persuaded to focus on peace over retribution. Especially because several of the crimes were committed by outsiders or fanatics.

To be honest, as much as Haig Bracken is aggressive about the Blackwoods, he's not unsaveable either. I think he could be worked on and made less confrontational. I don't think Wyll is as indoctrinated as his father, so there are ways to calm the feud over time. Getting Tyron and Ser Steffon off to the Wall would be steps forward, and perhaps seeing that the other house is not the huge, unique threat they seem, and seeing that there is more to gain from peace, might help the younger generation to do better. Ideally, Corrine would want to keep close communication with both Houses ongoing, and try to teach them to apply better diplomacy to one another. Both houses are capable of being very civil, but their prejudice is a block. Corrine feels strongly that it takes practice to interact with civility and co-operation, and one cannot practice such interaction if one is absent from one's seat.

[Septon Arlyn]

Neither wyll nor benjicot will be ruling, and with the 3 month plan it will allow for them to be at their home seats and be with their family for 9 months out of the year. It's not a perfect solution, but it's progress over keeping them in their respective houses with no scheduled interaction whatsoever.

From where I'm looking it is for long term peace, not a bandaid that allows the wound to feaster underneath.

Sometimes you must cut and cause some discomfort for cleaner, longer term, more full healing

[Baelon Drakeson]

Whew, this thread exploded and not in a good way.

Right, so first a couple of thoughts.
1) Lets all take a deep breath and calm down, or this thread will go nowhere.

2) We have two different tasks at hand, and trying to treat them as one will only make a mess of it. We have the right as part of our royal mandate to punish for the crimes we are investigating - but we had better be damned sure that we have sufficient evidence. Beyond that, any peace treaty (marriages, warding, reparations, military limitations, etc.) would have to be followed voluntarily by the two houses. Simply put, we have neither the authority nor the resources to force anything more. That rules out many of the plans discussed already, and makes most (all?) of the rest very difficult. We need to pick our battles carefully.

3) I think we can all agree that separating Tyron and Benji is a good idea - doing so by removing Ser Tyron is the only version of that that is likely to succeed - removing Benji would be IC opposed very strongly by more that one of the investigating houses - and if we want to convince Lord Haig and Ser Myles to go along with our treaty, we had damned better be presenting a unified front on the matter.

4) Ser Wyl is an adult (he's a knight and competed in the Story 1 tourney) - he is too old to be fostered or warded anywhere, and is unlikely to become fast friends with a six year old.

5) It may be the case that we can hold Lord Haig accountable for something regarding Pennytree.... but even that probably would not be enough to justify sending him to the Wall or otherwise removing him from power. As has been previously stated, trying to remove anyone from the area without the approval of their house will be problematic - and good luck convincing Lord Haig that going to the Wall is really in his own best interest. Convincing Ser Myles that it is in Benji's best interest would be somewhat easier, I think.


Ok, so while I think we all (or most of us at least) want to see a peace treaty that will work, I think we first have to establish how we are going to punish the crimes - that is, what we are going to force upon the two houses by royal writ (and again, we should tread carefully here. The last thing any of us need are Brackens or Blackwoods crying to the King to overturn our judgments.)

I see two possible methods for doing so (or rather for how to present them IC):
1) Apply an aggregate penalty to each house, restricting discussion of each crime only to an attribution of blame.

2) Quantify each individual crime and itemize punishment accordingly.

The benefit of option 1 is simplicity - there is less for the two houses to argue over;
the benefit of option 2 is that it helps ensure that the punishment(s) fits the crimes.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Neither wyll nor benjicot will be ruling, and with the 3 month plan it will allow for them to be at their home seats and be with their family for 9 months out of the year. It's not a perfect solution, but it's progress over keeping them in their respective houses with no scheduled interaction whatsoever.

From where I'm looking it is for long term peace, not a bandaid that allows the wound to feaster underneath.

Sometimes you must cut and cause some discomfort for cleaner, longer term, more full healing

Long-term peace is never going to happen. It hasn't happened in 5000 years, despite many previous efforts. We will be very lucky if we manage even a generation of peace. Lower your expectations, and it will be less annoying for others to have to answer constantly (spoiler: House Marsten IC, and me OOC).

[Septon Arlyn]

Yeah, but we could aim for 30 years of peace. If the greatest negotiator got 50 years I think that we could at least aim for that,

[Septon Arlyn]

As fair as finding peace goes, I think Baelon's option one gives us the best chance of that

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Good, then you'll be dropping this nonsense about Benjicot and stop acting like Dulvers know best. Finally!

[Septon Arlyn]

Good, then you'll be dropping this nonsense about Benjicot and stop acting like Dulvers know best. Finally!

I apologize if my posts appeared that way, I'm just trying to keep all of our options open.

Personally I'm kinda a fan of making them rebuild the green door inn and establishing a charter town in the middle of the conflict that has a tournament field there. Then create an ongoing Olympics/ festival that they each contribute half to per year, it would increase trade, provide a way for them to get their aggression out in a semi positive manner, as well as slow down their development of war resources

[Ser Jorah Holt]

certainly as it can be argued that its destruction was the result of the fighting and it would be symbolic of reparations

[Reader]

Leave House Bartheld out of this please. Lord Davain has not weighed in on the matter, and I made my postion clear that I would see Benji go to House Marsten if it was necessary to move him at all, which I am unconvinced is either necessary or we have the authority to do.

Anyway, what is IC reason for skipping Lord Tully in the process?

Because Lord Gorman Tully is a complete nitwit and severely embarrassed himself before the Crown in Story 1.

I doubt the Crown would trust him with a potato right about now.

However, the bigger item we're discussing is forcing Benji to be fostered away from home, that is punishment not doled out lightly. If we exile/execute (alternatively have him take the black) Lord Haig, then such a measure is fitting for balance, otherwise, I don't really see a justification. If Benji becomes ward, then I don't see us agreeing on someplace else than Marsten, which may or may not factor into some people's decisions to go for that solution.

My suggestion of exchanging Heirs was simply a mutual destruction option to enforce peace. As I said, I do not consider it a good option in any way.

Lord Haig is a Status 6 Lord! There is not enough viable evidence against him that comes even close to unseating a man of his station. Based on what we have, we would have a hard time unseating a status 4 or even 3.

That may be true, but that's also why we were trying to come to others to me fully formulate a plan. Just as Nathan's idea of requiring then to stabilize law is a good one, but I doubt that is the be all end all of his ideas to add to the treaty either.

There are a lot of things that can be done without mucking with the Wards or Lords or whatever.

Both Houses must stabilize their Lands. (Law score of at least 31)

Neither House may have a military force greater than the other. (Power scores must be equal. Whoever has the higher current power score is capped, and the other House may only rebuild their military to that level).

The crown takes control of the Iron mines. (Both Houses lose their Mine Wealth investments (but not the Wealth Points) and the mines are directly overseen by the crown.) This would also mean that a Crown military force would be stationed in the area to protect the mines (and act as a potential policing force for either House.)

By the time both Houses pay substantial reparations to the various other Houses, they may not have the wealth to support the mine Wealth Investment in any case.

Quantify the damage done by both Houses and levi a punitive tax for their actions. (ie, assign a negative modifier to their House Fortune rolls for a period of time relative to their culpability in the matters before us.)

Force either House to start building a particular Wealth investment so they have something to concentrate on other than each other. Such as the Brackens rebuilding the shattered Sept into an Abbey, or the Blackwoods building a Minstrel's Seat, or both Houses coming together to rebuild the Green Door Inn as a Trading Inn.


All of these things can be accomplished with simple edicts... will have minimal backlash... and keep the Peace for a reasonable length of time. Much of the other things discussed seem to be beyond the scope of what we were sent here to do or beyond the authority of what any of us have.

Super post, and bang on with regard to Lord Tully.

You lot do indeed have the power to do what Nathaniel lists, albeit not always with perfect precision (e.g. Power monitoring might be withing 10-15%, depending on what you set up).

Nathaniel also calls it correctly with regard to unseating sitting high status lords: you need something explosive. You theoretically carry the king's power, but the king wouldn't want yo uto unseat nobles without extremely good cause (as if you do so, it would make other nobles nervous and they'll rise up against VIserys I: ytou can cause a different civil war early!).

You lot have a reasonable chance of forging a long-lasting peace given your actions so far, not quite Jaehaerys the Conciliator length, but credible.

Enjoyed House Marsten's response to attempts to take their beloved Benjicot Blackwood away.

Direct question welcome.

Baelon's post below is also good.

Whew, this thread exploded and not in a good way.

Right, so first a couple of thoughts.
1) Lets all take a deep breath and calm down, or this thread will go nowhere.

2) We have two different tasks at hand, and trying to treat them as one will only make a mess of it. We have the right as part of our royal mandate to punish for the crimes we are investigating - but we had better be damned sure that we have sufficient evidence. Beyond that, any peace treaty (marriages, warding, reparations, military limitations, etc.) would have to be followed voluntarily by the two houses. Simply put, we have neither the authority nor the resources to force anything more. That rules out many of the plans discussed already, and makes most (all?) of the rest very difficult. We need to pick our battles carefully.

3) I think we can all agree that separating Tyron and Benji is a good idea - doing so by removing Ser Tyron is the only version of that that is likely to succeed - removing Benji would be IC opposed very strongly by more that one of the investigating houses - and if we want to convince Lord Haig and Ser Myles to go along with our treaty, we had damned better be presenting a unified front on the matter.

4) Ser Wyl is an adult (he's a knight and competed in the Story 1 tourney) - he is too old to be fostered or warded anywhere, and is unlikely to become fast friends with a six year old.

5) It may be the case that we can hold Lord Haig accountable for something regarding Pennytree.... but even that probably would not be enough to justify sending him to the Wall or otherwise removing him from power. As has been previously stated, trying to remove anyone from the area without the approval of their house will be problematic - and good luck convincing Lord Haig that going to the Wall is really in his own best interest. Convincing Ser Myles that it is in Benji's best interest would be somewhat easier, I think.


Ok, so while I think we all (or most of us at least) want to see a peace treaty that will work, I think we first have to establish how we are going to punish the crimes - that is, what we are going to force upon the two houses by royal writ (and again, we should tread carefully here. The last thing any of us need are Brackens or Blackwoods crying to the King to overturn our judgments.)

I see two possible methods for doing so (or rather for how to present them IC):
1) Apply an aggregate penalty to each house, restricting discussion of each crime only to an attribution of blame.

2) Quantify each individual crime and itemize punishment accordingly.

The benefit of option 1 is simplicity - there is less for the two houses to argue over;
the benefit of option 2 is that it helps ensure that the punishment(s) fits the crimes.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

It's true. Gorman Tully is a complete nitwit. My Lord Tully (in another game) would be way better.

[Reader]

It's true. Gorman Tully is a complete nitwit. My Lord Tully (in another game) would be way better.

If/when we get Lord Forrest Frey more involved, the aim is to have a decent Frey to contrast with the grasping Lord Tully, to play against type a little.

Some of you who rolled well on the pre story 2 challenge know House Marsten was placed as "
first among equals"
in the investigation, and I'm sure many of you have guessed why Lord Tully was snubbed over an investigation in to his own bannermen (a failure to keep the peace on his part and his grasping performance at Riverrun's tourney. One day you may find out whether it was Greens/Blacks who influenced the decision to send a royal force and why).

Lord Tully's son (Ser Eoric) and grandson (Ser Dermot) are decent types however. As noted previously, they're deliberately renamed from canon. :;
):

[Davain Bartheld]

Sorry it has taken me while to post in here, but getting caught up with the thread and looking up so Westorisi law information I can now accurately comment on the issue. From my understanding taking the black is an alternative to the punishment given to the individuals no an actual punishment. There for we cannot force Tyron Blackwood to take the black, only offer him a punishment harsh enough that he would choose the taking the black over the originally punishment.

So here is a list of the punishment that should be given to each person.

Maester Arrn: So it seems that we have come to a consensus that Maester Arrn should be sentence to death, which I agree with. While poison would be poetic justice, no honorable and just lord would advocate for its use, therefor I suggest he is stripped of his chains and hung for his crimes. As for the citadel replacing the maester, unless we have proof that he was acting under Lord Blackwood's orders, they should provide a new maester.

Benjicot Blackwood: While Fostering might be the only option to form a culture of lasting peace, it is one we cannot force to happen unless it is by force of arms or intimidation, both of which would not be wise. Therefor a tour of the damages and an understanding of his wrongs would do.

Tyron Blackwood: It seems everyone wants him to take the black, but we must first find an actual punishment for him and then hope he takes the black. I suggest we strip him of his titles and properties and remove his right hand. The funds acquired and be used to help pay reparations for the damages done.

Ser Rupert: He assassinated the Late Lord Blackwood so he should be sentenced to death.

Ser Olyar Lucas: Should be ransom back and funds acquired to pay for damages.

Overarching Edict: In agreement that both houses need to bring both their law up to 31. In order to hold Lord Tully responsible he must provide enough resources to improve both houses' law up to 31 instantly, to which both houses must repay Tully for the resources he used to stabilize their lands. This will cause all three houses to suffer since must give up resources right away and I doubt Lord Tully will let them slack on repaying him. Can explain more if it’s not enough detail.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Overarching Edict: In agreement that both houses need to bring both their law up to 31. In order to hold Lord Tully responsible he must provide enough resources to improve both houses' law up to 31 instantly, to which both houses must repay Tully for the resources he used to stabilize their lands. This will cause all three houses to suffer since must give up resources right away and I doubt Lord Tully will let them slack on repaying him. Can explain more if it’s not enough detail.

While I personally think this is a lovely idea, it won't be possible. House Tully is bankrupt and ruinously in debt. He simply does not have the resources to cover this. In fact, it was only direct intervention by Nathan and the Queen that prevented the Bank of Braavos from demanding immediate payment in full at the Riverrun Tourney. That should not stop you from suggesting it IC should you wish. This is not common knowledge by any means, and watching Gorman Tully squirm would be entertaining.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

now of course, our houses could intercede for House Tully in terms of resources in return for other debts being forgotten with House Tully :;
):

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

How does that benefit the people who don't owe House Tully money though?

[Ser Jorah Holt]

it doesn't, but it's an option for those who do. Other houses can always still force House Tully to pay

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I have visions of Tully fleeing to the Summer Isles with a sack of stolen money to escape his crushing debt.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

and that would be a bad thing?

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I thought it clearly wasn't, but have added a laughing emoticon for emphasis.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

it was. it was me who was unclear that I agreed :;
):

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Ah ok. Fair enough.

[Reader]

Overarching Edict: In agreement that both houses need to bring both their law up to 31. In order to hold Lord Tully responsible he must provide enough resources to improve both houses' law up to 31 instantly, to which both houses must repay Tully for the resources he used to stabilize their lands. This will cause all three houses to suffer since must give up resources right away and I doubt Lord Tully will let them slack on repaying him. Can explain more if it’s not enough detail.

While I personally think this is a lovely idea, it won't be possible. House Tully is bankrupt and ruinously in debt. He simply does not have the resources to cover this. In fact, it was only direct intervention by Nathan and the Queen that prevented the Bank of Braavos from demanding immediate payment in full at the Riverrun Tourney. That should not stop you from suggesting it IC should you wish. This is not common knowledge by any means, and watching Gorman Tully squirm would be entertaining.

Nathaniel is bang on: just because something is impossible doesn't mean you shouldn't ask for it. It can put others in a tough spot!

[Baelon Drakeson]

Sorry it has taken me while to post in here, but getting caught up with the thread and looking up so Westorisi law information I can now accurately comment on the issue. From my understanding taking the black is an alternative to the punishment given to the individuals no an actual punishment. There for we cannot force Tyron Blackwood to take the black, only offer him a punishment harsh enough that he would choose the taking the black over the originally punishment.

I'm not sure it's so cut and dry that the Wall cannot be a declared punishment. Regardless, we can get around that if it is an actual issue: I have suggested having each house send a member to the Wall as a symbolic act.

Maester Arrn: So it seems that we have come to a consensus that Maester Arrn should be sentence to death, which I agree with. While poison would be poetic justice, no honorable and just lord would advocate for its use, therefor I suggest he is stripped of his chains and hung for his crimes. As for the citadel replacing the maester, unless we have proof that he was acting under Lord Blackwood's orders, they should provide a new maester.

We have already been OOC informed that the Citadel will be stripping the Maester of his chain;
we have no authority to do that (it's completely up to the Citadel). Similarly, we cannot order the Citadel to replace him, though I think it is a reasonable suggestion to include. However, as Maesters are considered to be of high status (though not actually nobility per se) I think beheading might be the appropriate punishment.

Benjicot Blackwood: While Fostering might be the only option to form a culture of lasting peace, it is one we cannot force to happen unless it is by force of arms or intimidation, both of which would not be wise. Therefor a tour of the damages and an understanding of his wrongs would do.

Benjicot would not have been the first Blackwood or Bracken lord to be fostered out - it is no guarantee of peace, just as intermarriage between the houses has not guaranteed it, either. He has just lost his parents. I think it is very important for him to be raised by members of House Blackwood that do not have unbridled hatred for House Bracken. He needs to see that the hatred does not come part and parcel with the family name.

Tyron Blackwood: It seems everyone wants him to take the black, but we must first find an actual punishment for him and then hope he takes the black. I suggest we strip him of his titles and properties and remove his right hand. The funds acquired and be used to help pay reparations for the damages done.

As far as I am aware, his only title is 'Ser', which I do not believe even the King can do (the King can strip lordhood, as the king is the only one that can grant it;
knighthood on the other hand is not under the King's purview). Further, I'm not sure we would be able to justify maiming for his actions. That is a punishment common for smallfolk, but nobles are typically only forced to pay a fine unless they are deemed a traitor or an oathbreaker (for which the punishment is death). If he does have any properties, they could be stripped by Ser Myles as the acting head-of-house.

Ser Rupert: He assassinated the Late Lord Blackwood so he should be sentenced to death.

I believe you mean Ser Rufus. He was murdered/executed by Ser Steffon Vance for his crimes/to keep him from revealing Ser Steffon's involvement. Ser Steffon should be executed, though he is also a candidate for the Wall (if we go the symbolic act route).

Ser Olyar Lucas: Should be ransom back and funds acquired to pay for damages.

For reasons already discussed, I propose we handle Olyver Lucas separately from the main agreement, though I agree with the punishment.

Overarching Edict: In agreement that both houses need to bring both their law up to 31. In order to hold Lord Tully responsible he must provide enough resources to improve both houses' law up to 31 instantly, to which both houses must repay Tully for the resources he used to stabilize their lands. This will cause all three houses to suffer since must give up resources right away and I doubt Lord Tully will let them slack on repaying him. Can explain more if it’s not enough detail.

I think this is too much. How many of our houses actually have Law 31 (assuming no changes from the Chronicle starter, none of us started with 31+ Law)? That level of Law is the exception, not the norm. Demanding it would, frankly, look rather hypocritical. Further, I am not sure we can really make House Tully pay - he far outranks us all and the royal missive does not explicitly give us the right to punish anyone other than Houses Blackwood and Bracken. Demanding payment from House Tully would likely lead to Lord Gorman appealing the matter to the King, which would cast doubt on the rest of it. Better to merely condemn his inaction and perhaps recommend that he lend support to rebuild/maintain peace. He would not have a legal recourse to fight a mere recommendation, and not following it would likely make the influence hit he is going to take even worse... so he is incentivized to do what we want anyway.

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