Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Nathaniel Mason]

Well, Theo/me is strictly following the wishes of nephew dearest (as confirmed by the player when he was still around), so his vote will more or less be what Dunstan would vote. Though there may be differences in the details. (And he'd probably take issue with Theo's means, but he would also refuse to believe that uncle did anything of the sort he's accused of). Though it reminds me that Dunstan probably wants Bracken heads to roll over the mines....

I do miss the Tullison large ham delicatesse though, so him dropping by would be fun.

Well... since the Olyvar Lucas thing was revealed a week after Dunstan (the player) took his break, I do question that you know his mind on that.

Also, there is the matter of Theomore being accused of tampering with evidence. I am not sure if you have been cleared of that yet. (I haven't been keeping up on that situation.) Even if you have, Theomore speaking as the official representative for House Tullison would raise more than a few eyebrows. (Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, story wise.)

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

He hasn't been cleared. If anything, that hole is getting deeper.

[Theomore Tullison]

He hasn't been cleared. If anything, that hole is getting deeper.

On a sidenote, it's highly entertaining to see what various people suspects Theo of being up to, some of it is right, some of it is wrong, and some of it is right in all the wrong ways, do carry on. I hope that we'll get to see his end-game, one way or the other though.

I'll confer with reader on what Dunstan thinks of each individual item and how the Tullisons handle things in the IC sphere, Theo can act through allies and other Tullisons. Odds are that most will prefer Theomore's views over Dunstan's, regardless of what one might think of Theomore's character.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Half of the ransom from Ser Olyvar Lucas and any other monies realized should be going to House Daleford.

Was there any harm to the Daleford's aside for any pride?

Aside from damage to their reputation? Reputation means a lot in this world.

Was there actually any widely known connection between the Sept attack and House Daleford? As far as I am aware only Nathan made that connection (and those he told about it, of course). If anyone, House Blackwood suffered a loss of reputation over it. It's all well and good to sympathize with poor downtrodden House Daleford, but if you want to have them named recipients of funds, more justification will be needed. Honestly, I left it out because the ransom for one knight - a second son, at that - would be nowhere near enough to cover even just the cost of rebuilding the sept, let alone reparations to other wronged parties. Instead, I went for a more poetic justice. Ser Olyvar wanted money, so he is forced to live in ascetic poverty. He wanted influence, so he is removed from his family.

-Tyron being a landed knight of Raventree (landed quality implies non-hereditary, else it would not carry the sponsor prereq), levying fines upon his incomes is to levy a fine upon Lord Benji, which is to punish House Blackwood for crimes committed by men acting against (or without) orders. Which would be acceptable if House Bracken are similarly punished, as it stands, it looks like favoritism. I would suggest rewording it to make him personally responsible for reparations, and Lord Haig may hold his son as ward until ransomed back.

A fair point on Ser Tyron's incomes being House Blackwood incomes. However, as Ser Tyron's personal income likely derives largely from the same, I'm not sure how your version makes much of a difference. Plus, this incentivizes Ser Myles to actively work towards convincing Ser Tyron that taking the Black is the best thing for the family. Also, I am strongly opposed to Jojen Blackwood being held only for Ransom - it makes it too easy to simply pay off the ransom and remove the stick keeping Ser Tyron in line.

I'm quite alright with certain aspects seeming to favor House Bracken. Others seem to favor House Blackwood. If both parties feel an agreement is biased against them, then it is likely at least somewhat balanced.

-All these knights have the right to demand trial by combat in an attempt to exonerate themselves, I expect that some of them will want to exercise it.

Indeed. I fully expect that they will take advantage of it. Luckily, we have several highly skilled knights that I am sure would be willing to step up and defeat them.

-Maester's generally can have status 4, so it follows that Arran could be sent to the wall rather than Ser Tyron, I say go more vicious and drop the recommendation at the end of it, along with replacing member of high position with member of the house no more than one link removed from the lord, which seals Tyron's fate

Right, good point on the Maesters. However, your adjustment would force either Lord Haig or Ser Wyl to be the Bracken to take the Black, which I think would rightfully be seen as over-aggressive against House Bracken. Also, your "
one link"
rule is unclear, it could be interpreted in such a way that Ser Tyron does not qualify (is an uncle, i.e. a father's brother, one or two links?). A simpler solution is to specify "
A knight of high position"
. That still leaves Ser Colyn Manderly as a possible substitute for Ser Tyron, but unless we name him specifically that can't be avoided... hence adding other incentives.

-Did we ever establish that nobody else beyond Steffon Vance and Rupert Bracken knew about the assassination? It would be a hard sell to have missed the big replica of Lord Blackwood's chambers in the courtyard. At best neglect given that the accusation was not likely unknown IMO.

If memory serves, Lord Haig indicated believably that he had no idea. I don't think the training area was so conspicuous or else there would have been rumors about it before the assassination... giving forewarning. I suspect the "
training ground"
was not in a well traveled, public location.

-Also, fortifications of mines, that kinda fails to recognize that the Brackens attacked and that caused the damage to them. A brief stop in production due to general warfare is to be expected, the king's letter asked us to ascertain the culprit behind damage being done. If we expect Blackwoods (Tyron) to pay for the damages done in salted fields, I would expect the Brackens to pay for the reparations.

Part of the point of separating the crimes and the punishments is that it leaves it vague specifically what each punishment is for... further, the houses are quite strapped financially, so forcing them to make immediate contributions of coin in any significant amount could be a bit problematic.

-The suggested punishment of Ser Olyvar I can't get behind. I vote for setting a ransom that should cover the reconstruction of the septry, failure to pay means he can choose between the wall or Lord Haig's justice. Or just hand him over to Lord Haig's justice.

See above. The cost of a Septry is far to high for a knight's ransom.

-Same with Steffon Vance, if Maester Arran is denied the option to take the black, then neither should he have that chance.

See my recent post on the subject. It's about political realities as opposed to justice or vengeance.

-Am I to understand that the standing suggestion is that no compensation will befall house Darry?

No, as I previously stated, there should be something regarding House Darry, but I had no idea what that should be or where it would fall in the document. I try to think of everything, but I'm only human. :;
):

[Ser Jorah Holt]

Everything we have found so far indicates that House Darry did suffer damage from House Bracken's incursions into their lands.

[Nathaniel Mason]

I think there is a fine point that is being missed here.

This is the OOC thread. You can say 'House Daleford isn't worthy of compensation.' or 'House Darry isn't worthy of compensation.' all you like, but everything should be going into the mix to be voted on individually.

It is one thing for a House like Marsten or Bartheld to be voted down by the other Houses with respect to compensation for House Daleford. It quite another for it to be decided that the situation is not going to be included because a few players don't think it's important enough, or not appropriate.

This initial document is meant to be reflective of all the Houses. The Daleford compensation clause would be there, because two of the Houses wish it to be. No-one gets to pre-edit the document before voting takes place.

I am starting to feel uncomfortable we are being presented with a 'fait de compli' and sidestepping the voting of the involved Houses entirely. As much as the summary Baelon has made and the perspective penalties he has suggested are good ones, ultimately what is decided is up to the Leaders of the investigation Houses given that authority by the Crown.

[Reader]

Everything we have found so far indicates that House Darry did suffer damage from House Bracken's incursions into their lands.

Several people have hard numbers for the damage done to Darry, from various sources. Some of the numbers even match!

[Reader]

Nathaniel - fear not. Worst case can put treaty back to d8 to allow if debate/proper voting. Actually, will try to give proper poll access. Should help and will try to do it pre departure today.

Theomore - amused at your role as universal bogeyman too. My NPCs are torn at delight at it helping them get away with things and frustration at "
credit"
being stolen. :;
):

[Kevan Lyras]

All of that looks great, Baelon! My one tiny thing, and it's purely an IC thing, is thst Corrine will push for Vance and his 3 living accomplices to be executed.

That would be my preference too, but if we want to separate Ser Tyron from Benji without looking like we are targeting him specifically (which would lower our chances of success) sacrifices must be made. Ser Steffon taking the black is, I think, an acceptable trade-off.

I very much second Corrine's opinion here. The assassination of a Lord is one of the worse crimes here, while Tyron on the other hand had lesser crimes committed. I really think we should execute all accomplices of the assassination including Vance.

Oh, and I also share her opinion that I really like what you've created :-)

Edit - Infos on the Darry lands:

He [Ser Wyll Bracken] largely confirms the Darry report of: -2 wealth, -2 land and -1 population.

He'd prefer -1 wealth, -2 land and -0 population, but largely confirms the Darry version of the facts (he just has a harder time quantifying the damage and the flight/death of population is harder to prove). His lower number is part ignorance (which he admits) and partially natural Bracken bias.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Nathaniel - fear not. Worst case can put treaty back to d8 to allow if debate/proper voting. Actually, will try to give proper poll access. Should help and will try to do it pre departure today.

You should make an IC private sub-forum for those who will be voting.

The peons don't actually get to know what happens behind closed doors.

[Reader]

Nathaniel - fear not. Worst case can put treaty back to d8 to allow if debate/proper voting. Actually, will try to give proper poll access. Should help and will try to do it pre departure today.

You should make an IC private sub-forum for those who will be voting.

The peons don't actually get to know what happens behind closed doors.

Ha.

I'm in favour of doing things in public (or at least moving them there after the fact).

I've opened up poll creation in this forum (create a new thread to try it out), but can go with Nathaniel's IC idea and then move it public later if there's more enthusiasm for that.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Ha.

I'm in favour of doing things in public (or at least moving them there after the fact).

I've opened up poll creation in this forum (create a new thread to try it out), but can go with Nathaniel's IC idea and then move it public later if there's more enthusiasm for that.

The sub-forum is because only the representatives from each House actually get a vote.

It's not really because what is discussed there needs to be private.

[Kevan Lyras]

Or we just have a second thread, where only the items to vote on are posted and each representative posts once with his votes. Over this few representatives, a tally by hand should be possible, no?

[Reader]

Ha.

I'm in favour of doing things in public (or at least moving them there after the fact).

I've opened up poll creation in this forum (create a new thread to try it out), but can go with Nathaniel's IC idea and then move it public later if there's more enthusiasm for that.

The sub-forum is because only the representatives from each House actually get a vote.

It's not really because what is discussed there needs to be private.

Public forum with voting access for mix of IC posting and votes? Advise multiple threads to allow multiple votes, but I'd keep most things here and use those for voting/resolution. Hope this helps.

viewforum.php?f=211

[Baelon Drakeson]

I think there is a fine point that is being missed here.

This is the OOC thread. You can say 'House Daleford isn't worthy of compensation.' or 'House Darry isn't worthy of compensation.' all you like, but everything should be going into the mix to be voted on individually.

On the contrary, such a document would be intractably complicated. Believe me, even writing this up was not easy. Further, If each prospective punishment were given an independent yes/no vote you run the risk of ending up with multiple punishments for the same crime, possibly massively over-penalizing. Instead, the idea is to have a coherent document and then proposed changes can be voted on. Also, while this is an OOC thread, the document itself is a draft of an IC document... though not one that Baelon-the-character would have written. He has neither the requisite temperament nor necessary skills to have created this, and beyond that he would be much more hard-line on some things. Gwyn and Daveth have permission to take IC credit for it if one or both chooses. :;
):

It is one thing for a House like Marsten or Bartheld to be voted down by the other Houses with respect to compensation for House Daleford. It quite another for it to be decided that the situation is not going to be included because a few players don't think it's important enough, or not appropriate.

In terms of the final product, agreed. In terms of the document I've written... well, everyone gets their input, but as I am the author, I have final say.
I have no illusions of it being the final document, as I have mentioned numerous times, though (well, I know I have in PMs with Reader, if I haven't made that clear enough in this thread, I apologize)
Heck, I likely won't even get to vote on it - I doubt Daveth would step aside for Baelon to rep House Coldbrook. OOC I can say that he probably shouldn't step aside for me to have IC votes... This process is going to need level heads, which is not Baelon's area of expertise...

This initial document is meant to be reflective of all the Houses. The Daleford compensation clause would be there, because two of the Houses wish it to be.

This document was both my idea and my labor, you don't get to tell me what it is meant to be... I get to tell you. It was never meant to be a compendium of ideas. Yoren was already doing that in the first page of this thread, which while incredibly useful while writing this document, it is not a particularly practical document to use as the starting point for negotiations. That is what this was meant to be.

No-one gets to pre-edit the document before voting takes place.

On the contrary, that's precisely what it means for someone to draft a document like this. It can't be done without pre-editing. I have tried to get this document to represent, not all the houses, but rather a middle-ground on all the players perspectives. More than that though I have tried to make it a complete, workable document that could, in theory (unlikely though it may be) could be adopted with no changes. That way, any proposed changes to be voted on can be in the form of "
add this, but adjust this to keep it balanced"
.

I am starting to feel uncomfortable we are being presented with a 'fait de compli' and sidestepping the voting of the involved Houses entirely. As much as the summary Baelon has made and the perspective penalties he has suggested are good ones, ultimately what is decided is up to the Leaders of the investigation Houses given that authority by the Crown.

Well, it being a 'fait de compli' is entirely up to the people who actually get to vote on it which, as discussed above, is not me.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Well, it being a 'fait de compli' is entirely up to the people who actually get to vote on it which, as discussed above, is not me.

With a new player running Lord Davain Bartheld, I will not be voting either.

I was going to respond, but I realize that I really don't care, IC or OOC what happens to most of these people. So if there are any specific results from the investigation I have issue with, I will deal with that later.

So... fine... carry on.

[Yoren longshore]

Well, it being a 'fait de compli' is entirely up to the people who actually get to vote on it which, as discussed above, is not me.

With a new player running Lord Davain Bartheld, I will not be voting either.

I was going to respond, but I realize that I really don't care, IC or OOC what happens to most of these people. So if there are any specific results from the investigation I have issue with, I will deal with that later.

So... fine... carry on.

The fun part is that anybody can influence the decisions. If Nathan dissagrees with one he can simply send Jon Roxton at them :;
): And though Nathan don't have official power, there are several (like Yoren) who trusts him.

[Nathaniel Mason]

The fun part is that anybody can influence the decisions. If Nathan disagrees with one he can simply send Jon Roxton at them :;
): And though Nathan don't have official power, there are several (like Yoren) who trusts him.

It would have to be some very dire circumstances for Nathan to use or abuse Ser Jon like that.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Yoren's point stands, though - even those who do not get to vote have means to impact the outcome - words, challenges, etc.

[Yoren longshore]

Simply telling them your points may work. Theomore holds no sway, but he has two or three votes to keep the dornish out of the treaty. He also has two or three houses manipulated into thinking something else happened at pennytree, with evidence and all. Official power is a very small part of power :;
):

[Baelon Drakeson]

It's not that he has you believing untruths, just lacking certain details...

As for leaving Dorne out of the final document, it was in the King's missive. It's not exactly a secret matter.

[Yoren longshore]

I'm not claiming to know any body's reasons for what they wish to leave out/keep in, I'm just observing that even people like you, nathan and Theo can do a lot without having a formal day in things. Especially those with a strong arm to back their claim.

[Ereth Redwain]

I dont get to vote or even invited to investigate more than what interest me IC, so its no big deal IC to me lol.

Lets see who shows up to the Red Wedding! As in Redwain wedding mind you.

[Yoren longshore]

There will be a good joust so everyone is encouraged to show up!

[size=50:mgjvv3sd]at their own risk.

[Ereth Redwain]

Its local tourney, but we are derailing this thread. Let us see what the votes and draft do. I do belive it should be secret until the paper is presented. As a neutral party sign as witness of veracity on it with the Dalefords as the second witness perhaps?

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