Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Reader]

Tyron Blackwood: It seems everyone wants him to take the black, but we must first find an actual punishment for him and then hope he takes the black. I suggest we strip him of his titles and properties and remove his right hand. The funds acquired and be used to help pay reparations for the damages done.

As far as I am aware, his only title is 'Ser', which I do not believe even the King can do (the King can strip lordhood, as the king is the only one that can grant it;
knighthood on the other hand is not under the King's purview). Further, I'm not sure we would be able to justify maiming for his actions. That is a punishment common for smallfolk, but nobles are typically only forced to pay a fine unless they are deemed a traitor or an oathbreaker (for which the punishment is death). If he does have any properties, they could be stripped by Ser Myles as the acting head-of-house.

This is the kind of minor detail I can help with, if you lot want some nuance in punishments.

Ser Tyron has the Landed quality, which he can be stripped of.

You lot can also take inspiration from the books, with forced tonsuring as a punishment or walks of punishment/pilgrimages etc.

[Nathaniel Mason]

None of the starter Houses have a 31 Law, but I don't consider that relevant.

Most of the starter Houses have at least a 31 in Influence, Power or Wealth. Some MUCH higher, and some much higher in all three.

You can argue that it's hypocritical, but 31 is not that much higher a bar... and our Houses have not been at war for five thousand years. Nor has the Crown needed to step in to correct the running of any of our Houses.

Demanding that they clean up their act is not unreasonable in any way, and making them concentrate on their LAW stat is an effective way of doing that.

This is a punishment. Pure and simple. A deserved one in my opinion.

[Septon Arlyn]

And once they get their law to 31 they can spend a house action to convert it to power

[Reader]

And once they get their law to 31 they can spend a house action to convert it to power

Good thinking. Therefore (if you go down this path) you may want to follow the suggestions made previously of limiting power at both Houses.

[Nathaniel Mason]

And once they get their law to 31 they can spend a house action to convert it to power

Good thinking. Therefore (if you go down this path) you may want to follow the suggestions made previously of limiting power at both Houses.

You will note in Table 6-19 that Defense and Law are the two stats that cannot be converted to something else.

Any points they assign to Law stay there unless affected by future House Fortune rolls.

They can convert Power or Influence to Law to reach the 31 if they like, but it is a one way trip.

[Reader]

And once they get their law to 31 they can spend a house action to convert it to power

Good thinking. Therefore (if you go down this path) you may want to follow the suggestions made previously of limiting power at both Houses.

You will note in Table 6-19 that Defense and Law are the two stats that cannot be converted to something else.

Any points they assign to Law stay there unless affected by future House Fortune rolls.

They can convert Power or Influence to Law to reach the 31 if they like, but it is a one way trip.

Oh, even better. I was too lazy/busy (delete depending on opinion of narrator) to check.

[Septon Arlyn]

Ditto, so that makes it the best choice then.

[Nathaniel Mason]

I am not just a pretty face. :mrgreen:

[Septon Arlyn]

What about instead of straight compensation for house terry we instead hold a tournament of forgiveness where both house Blackwood and house Bracken would contribute half to a grand tournament style on house darry lands to acknowledge the fact that damage was done and it would be a way for house Blackwood and house Darry to work out some aggression?

[Reader]

What about instead of straight compensation for house terry we instead hold a tournament of forgiveness where both house Blackwood and house Bracken would contribute half to a grand tournament style on house darry lands to acknowledge the fact that damage was done and it would be a way for house Blackwood and house Darry to work out some aggression?

Get the format right and it could work. I'll say no more on specific options here so as not to stamp on creativity, but think of the different forms tournaments take in the stories to give you some ideas.

Get the format wrong and we'll get a hilarious bloodbath that only Lord Haig Bracken and Ser Tyron Blackwood will enjoy. I'm picturing something similar to the butchery of the Saxon in the tourney/melee in Ivanhoe by their Norman overlords.

[Baelon Drakeson]

You can argue that it's hypocritical, but 31 is not that much higher a bar... and our Houses have not been at war for five thousand years. Nor has the Crown needed to step in to correct the running of any of our Houses.

Demanding that they clean up their act is not unreasonable in any way, and making them concentrate on their LAW stat is an effective way of doing that.

This is a punishment. Pure and simple. A deserved one in my opinion.

Oh, I agree with the sentiment, but I think that this is getting into the sort of territory that could cripple the houses, and the ones who suffer the most from that will be the smallfolk. I think rather than setting a specific bar, we should instead mandate a proportion of spending. Something like half of all revenue income (i.e. House Fortune increases) for the next 10 years must go towards peacekeeping efforts (+Law). That gives them some flexibility to be able to, for instance, rebuild (Land, Wealth holdings) and repopulate their lands (Population), both of which are good for smallfolk too, or as the situation demands, invest in defense/power to keep from being invaded by stronger/aggressive neighbors (House Lucas, for instance) or influence (to have heirs, a bit important to a house), etc;
however, as the houses prosper, their lands become safer, too.

Remember, if the punishments seem too harsh, they will not follow them, or will appeal to the King directly... which as far as I am concerned is a 'fail' condition. The trick here is to get what we want in ways that the houses will agree to. It's not that the punishments have to be light, but they have to be presented in a palatable manner.

[Reader]

Another issue to consider:

- what's to stop both houses fighting should war break out? Wards are obvious and have been discussed, but treasures can be bonded to another House and other imaginative plans conjured up. Some mechanism to prevent the houses warring may be wise.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Another issue to consider:

- what's to stop both houses fighting should war break out? Wards are obvious and have been discussed, but treasures can be bonded to another House and other imaginative plans conjured up. Some mechanism to prevent the houses warring may be wise.

Definitely. I'd very much like to see them being too busy to fight eachother for the short term, while having the medium term goal of trying to get civility and compassion trained into the youngest generation, and the long term goal of getting them to teach that civility and compassion to the subsequent generations.

That's very much an ideal, because Corrine is an idealist, but even just the first 2 would be great.

[Theomore Tullison]

Cap power for both to what they need to police their domains. However, IC, we probably only limit the number of armed forces they can have (mounted/unmounted), which probably means they'll subvert by spending power on training.

I don't see how we, IC, can put in a measure to enforce law/power resources. Those are abstracted values. Number and type of holdings is something we more easily can deal with.

[Reader]

Another issue to consider:

- what's to stop both houses fighting should war break out? Wards are obvious and have been discussed, but treasures can be bonded to another House and other imaginative plans conjured up. Some mechanism to prevent the houses warring may be wise.

Definitely. I'd very much like to see them being too busy to fight eachother for the short term, while having the medium term goal of trying to get civility and compassion trained into the youngest generation, and the long term goal of getting them to teach that civility and compassion to the subsequent generations.

That's very much an ideal, because Corrine is an idealist, but even just the first 2 would be great.

If they're reasonably weak fear of a resurgent House Darry that's keen to reeastablish itself MIGHT keep them in line? Or it might not.

[Septon Arlyn]

What about putting on a grand tournament (10 wealth= 5 from each house) featuring a joust and equestrian competition, (5 wealth each = 10 = 5 from each house)
(avoid the Melee at all costs)

This can be where they spend the divested wealth from the mines, slowing their economic/military growth while providing happiness for the people under their rule.

then each blackwood and darry get a guaranteed 2 influence for sponsoring the event, and the additional 2+ D6 will go to house darry as compensation. this option gives each house something, while giving the possibly of Darry getting more, while risking that they may not get as much influence either.

[Baelon Drakeson]

If we are going to force them into paying for anything, it should be repairs and reparations, not a tourney. Do we really want to be seen as glorifying these events?

[Ereth Redwain]

I don't like the tourney idea, and agree with Baelon.

So far as in paying reparations:

Bracken:
Iron Mines
-Punish his undisciplined men (execution/wall or whatever else)

Blackwood
Salted Fields
-Help Blackbuckle (can be seen as "
reparations"
)

[Septon Arlyn]

It would be a forgiveness tournament, announcing that hostilities will be coming to an end. It would be celebrating peace not glorifying the war. Also it would be a way for tensions to be worked out. And if we have a marriage it would be a good time for that as well

And the funds would be coming out of reparations towards house Darry

[Ereth Redwain]

It would be a forgiveness tournament, announcing that hostilities will be coming to an end. It would be celebrating peace not glorifying the war. Also it would be a way for tensions to be worked out. And if we have a marriage it would be a good time for that as well

And the funds would be coming out of reparations towards house Darry

While I believe both Houses need to pay reparations to House Darry, I do believe Blackwood should carry the brunt of it. They used House Darry lands to stage attacks from, so they were the ones that caused the problem and damage by doing so. It's only natural that Bracken troops give pursuit.

Still against the tournament, no matter what you call it, makes no sense to me.

[Septon Arlyn]

That was my plan for the big tournament. Otherwise I would say that they could host a small tournament with the 5 wealth of compensation and the d6 influence gain would go straight to Darry. Influence is generally worth more than wealth, and as I said, it would be something that would let out aggression while still being seen as civil.

It would also force the Blackwood's and Bracken's to work together on something, and by placing it on neutral lands it avoids one house being able to claim ownership of the event.

If we want a lasting peace then we need to find something that they can colaberate on, while still competing.

I'm not suggesting that that tournament is the be all end all of punishments, what I am saying is that we could use it as a tool.

Baelon even stated that we have to be harsh, but not so much so as to appear so. My grand tournament idea does use up a lot of resources, yet at the same time the Blackwood's and Bracken's would be getting something for their large investment of resources

[Yoren longshore]

Just kill them all and be done with it
On a side note: Would it be possible to make the borderlands a training ground for royal levies from the riverlands? This would create a deterrent for war and it would squash any further attempts at riots.

[Ser Walton Dulver]

Just kill them all and be done with it
On a side note: Would it be possible to make the borderlands a training ground for royal levies from the riverlands? This would create a deterrent for war and it would squash any further attempts at riots.

stripe of no man's land^

[Septon Arlyn]

I do like that plan Yoren, similar to my tournament ground idea.

If we combine that with Nathan's idea to strip the mines from them and place a a royal peacekeeping force there, we can make the training grounds be the base of operations for the Royal peacekeeping force

Does anyone else have some ideas for how to keep the peace?

[Nathaniel Mason]

Oh, I agree with the sentiment, but I think that this is getting into the sort of territory that could cripple the houses, and the ones who suffer the most from that will be the smallfolk. I think rather than setting a specific bar, we should instead mandate a proportion of spending. Something like half of all revenue income (i.e. House Fortune increases) for the next 10 years must go towards peacekeeping efforts (+Law). That gives them some flexibility to be able to, for instance, rebuild (Land, Wealth holdings) and repopulate their lands (Population), both of which are good for smallfolk too, or as the situation demands, invest in defense/power to keep from being invaded by stronger/aggressive neighbors (House Lucas, for instance) or influence (to have heirs, a bit important to a house), etc;
however, as the houses prosper, their lands become safer, too.

Sure. Fine.

This is actually much harsher than what I was suggesting.

If you take the starter House stats, they ranged in Law score from 18-29. Achieving a 31 would require 2-13 points.

Assuming an average increase of 1 point per month. 50% to Law over the next 10 years would be 60 points. They would end up being the most lawful areas of Westeros.

My way, they would have probably converted Influence to Law to get to the 31.

Your way will shackle them for ten years and eventually lead to a MUCH higher law score. I have absolutely no problem with that.

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