Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

As Gwyn says, it should/will be called by House Marsten.

Reader, shall I set it up?

[Reader]

As Gwyn says, it should/will be called by House Marsten.

Reader, shall I set it up?

Goooo ye children of the yellow turban.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYw8zr8Q-3I

Uh, yeah. Fire away. :?

[Yoren longshore]

Having that one character of status 4+ have to take the black part is not really to my liking. Either punish somebody or don't punish somebody. Doing it this way would show a disinterested, if we can't even be bothered to find out who in a house should be punished, why should people listen to us?

[Septon Arlyn]

I did offer the suggestion of a 10 years exile. That way he is away from benjicot while he is growing up so hopefully by the time Tyron is done with that exile Lord blackwood will not be as easily manipulated.

Then we can have the man at arms simply killed, then he will most likely choose trial by combat/the wall

Having Tyron take the black is a more permanent solution, possibly one we can encourage with exile and squiring of his son to Bracken Haig.

Still think that having Ser Myles and Lady Bracken marry would be another good way to encourage peace.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Having that one character of status 4+ have to take the black part is not really to my liking. Either punish somebody or don't punish somebody. Doing it this way would show a disinterested, if we can't even be bothered to find out who in a house should be punished, why should people listen to us?

Hence it being labeled a symbolic act and the suggested individuals also having separately listed punishments. It is intended to be seen as a punishment for the houses, as ultimately these crimes derive from a feud that long predates any of the active criminals.

Taken out of context, yes, I could see it being thought that we did not bother to have identified the criminals. In context however that is patently untrue - the 'crimes' section names them specifically, and the individual punishment section has specific punishments for them... both are impossible if we were disinterested and couldn't be bothered to identify them.

I did offer the suggestion of a 10 years exile. That way he is away from benjicot while he is growing up so hopefully by the time Tyron is done with that exile Lord blackwood will not be as easily manipulated.

Exile of any length is an excessively harsh punishment for Tyron's crimes. Normally, they would likely only warrant a fine (as do must crimes committed by nobles). Hence needing to get Tyron to volunteer to take the Black.

Then we can have the man at arms simply killed, then he will most likely choose trial by combat/the wall

If you are talking about the guardsman we are chasing down, he is not a noble and does not have a right to a trial by combat... or a trial at all, really.

Still think that having Ser Myles and Lady Bracken marry would be another good way to encourage peace.

Agreed, which is why it was in my list of things to put in a peace treaty. What we really need are suggestions for getting Blackwoods into House Bracken in such a way that doesn't make them seem too much like sacrificial lambs.

[Yoren longshore]

You are essentially relying on them to take the black voluntarily so that nobody else has to. If they refuse then? Then you'll send someone completely innocent to the wall. We are here with the authority of the King, and have the right to send them to the wall.
Punishing a whole family was seen as excessively harsh in medieval Europe, that the setting is loosely based upon. If you simply try to send Haigh to the wall, hoping that his family member won't do it, then just state it in the document and we'll vote on it, given that Marsten is a tiebreaker I think you might do it.

[Nathaniel Mason]

And... when Maester Humphrey volunteers to go to the Wall out of his fanatical duty to House Bracken...

... Or when Ser Wyll volunteers to go to the Wall to save his Father...

What will happen then?

Congratulations. Justice has been served. One of the few people who had absolutely nothing to do with any of the crimes before us will have been effectively scapegoated.

Not that politics and justice have much to do with each other. So carry on.

However, I highly doubt that the Master of Laws will sign off on sending innocent Status 4+ men to the Wall. Sets a very bad precedent.

[Kevan Lyras]

Septon Arlyn wrote:
I did offer the suggestion of a 10 years exile. That way he is away from benjicot while he is growing up so hopefully by the time Tyron is done with that exile Lord blackwood will not be as easily manipulated.
Exile of any length is an excessively harsh punishment for Tyron's crimes. Normally, they would likely only warrant a fine (as do must crimes committed by nobles). Hence needing to get Tyron to volunteer to take the Black.

Hm but maybe a 5 year exile is better than the chance of him taking the black, which could backfire with somebody else taking the black..?

[Baelon Drakeson]

You are essentially relying on them to take the black voluntarily so that nobody else has to.

No, I am relying on them being incentivized by escaping their other punishments (death for Ser Steffon and a perceived major threat to his son's life for Ser Tyron) as well as pressures from their respective houses to get them to 'volunteer' to take the black.

We are here with the authority of the King, and have the right to send them to the wall.Punishing a whole family was seen as excessively harsh in medieval Europe, that the setting is loosely based upon. If you simply try to send Haigh to the wall, hoping that his family member won't do it, then just state it in the document and we'll vote on it, given that Marsten is a tiebreaker I think you might do it.

1) I'm not trying to send Haigh to the wall.
2) We may have the authority to do it, but there is a concept called "
abuse of power"
. Excessive punishments will cause a backlash of ill will (likely Influence loss in mechanical terms)... but hey, you are one of the signatories, I am not. If you think that House Longshore can take yet another influence hit, by all means propose it IC and vote for it.

And... when Maester Humphrey volunteers to go to the Wall out of his fanatical duty to House Bracken...

Apologies, I had thought I had changed 'member' to 'knight' when Theo brought up Maesters. With that tiny change Maester Humphrey can be as fanatical as he wants, he can't "
save"
Ser Steffon.

... Or when Ser Wyll volunteers to go to the Wall to save his Father...

Remember, that's only if Ser Steffon refuses to go to the wall, choosing death. Also, I doubt Lord Haig would let Wyl go. Especially as his other heir (Lady Kerry) will (hopefully) be married to a Blackwood.

Congratulations. Justice has been served. One of the few people who had absolutely nothing to do with any of the crimes before us will have been effectively scapegoated.

"
There are no innocents here"
. Lord Haig while too honorable to have perpetrated any of these crimes is a paradigmatic Blackwood-hater. He helped create the environment that led to the crimes. Ser Wyl led the attack that breached the Darry border.

Not that politics and justice have much to do with each other. So carry on.

True enough. However, for many of us peace is the highest goal, not politics or justice.

However, I highly doubt that the Master of Laws will sign off on sending innocent Status 4+ men to the Wall. Sets a very bad precedent.

First off, Ironrod does not get to sign off. He may disapprove and that would cost us (as per my comment above to Yoren), but we are acting with the authority of the King - he doesn't get to supercede that. At least, not while the King is alive.

Second, if the recommendations in the document are followed, Ser Steffon and Ser Tyron - neither of whom are innocent - would be going to the wall.


Revised:
Added the "
knight"
tweak
Added Ser Humphrey Piper to the crimes/individual punishments sections (for having led/participated in the first Pennytree attack). His punishment is to be removed from command and an unoriginal fine, amount TBD.

Thinking about what Theo said about Ser Tyron's punishment being effectively against House Blackwood, perhaps a singular VERY large fine would serve - maybe 1000gd [5 wealth]? Maybe that's too much? I don't know;
he's landed, so he has his own knightly house with it's own Wealth resource, so I would think he would have the funds to afford it (or be able to sell off assets to afford it), but it would be a hefty blow to his personal household.

We the undersigned, acting upon the authority granted unto our represented houses by His Grace, King Viserys Targaryen, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Protector of the Realm, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Defender of the Realm, do hereby declare that the following is a true and accurate accounting of crimes committed by Houses Bracken and Blackwood, and a fair and just punishment to be meted out for the same.

I. Crimes

Let it be known that these crimes were investigated by representatives of the houses of Marsten, Bartheld, Coldbrook, Dulver, Kytley, Longshore, and Tullison:

Ser Steffon Vance and Ser Rufus Bracken, with the aid of various lesser men, did without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors plot and execute the assassination of Lord Bryan Blackwood and his wife, the Lady Reina.

Maester Arran of House Blackwood, without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of his superiors, did poison the well of the village of Blackbuckle, ending countless innocent lives as well as the lives of various Bracken soldiers and torturers, for the purpose of ending the suffering of Blackwood soldiers held captive and tormented there.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did fortify their respective iron mines, depriving the crown of vital resources for the war in the Stepstones. Upon attack by House Bracken, soldiers of House Blackwood did fire the supports of the Blackwood mines in an attempt to render the Bracken attack profitless.

House Bracken soldiers, led by Ser Humphrey Piper, acting dishonorably without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors, did attack a merchant caravan from Dorne for the purpose of personal profit.

Ser Tyron Blackwood did lead a regiment of Blackwood cavalry in the salting of fields in the vicinity of Warrior’s Seat.

Bandits in the employ of Ser Olyvar Lucas did sack the Septry at Battle Valley, falsely bearing the arms of House Blackwood and thereby did wrong to House Blackwood, House Bracken, and the Faith of the Seven.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did violate the borders of their lands with House Darry, with Ser Tyron Blackwood using Darry lands as a point of refuge and staging ground for attacks and Ser Wyll Bracken, pursuing his attackers, did cause damage to Darry lands and holdings.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having recently been orphaned, did in his grief and youthful impulsiveness order an attack from under a flag of mourning upon Bracken troops.


II. Punishments

The following have been determined to be appropriate punishments for the aforementioned crimes.

II.A. Punishments levied upon House Bracken and House Blackwood.

Each of House Bracken and House Blackwood shall send forth a knight of high position [Status 4+] to join the Night’s Watch as a symbolic act of contrition and forgiveness-seeking. As perpetrators of various crimes listed above, it is the strong recommendation of the representatives that Ser Steffon Vance and Ser Tyron Blackwood fulfill this obligation, and thereby be forgiven of their crimes, obviating the .

No less than one quarter of each houses’ revenue income shall be spent on reconstruction, repair and maintenance of lands and holdings, for a period of no less than ten years or until the lands and holdings of the house have been restored. [25% of House Fortune income must be for Lands, Population, or Wealth (only if earmarked for the relevant holdings)]

No less that one quarter of each houses’ revenue income, plus any remainder from the previous item after a house’s lands and holdings have been repaired or rebuilt, shall be spent on internal peacekeeping efforts, for a period of no less than ten years. [50% of House Fortune income must be for Law or for the previous item, no less than 25% towards Law]

All revenues from the Bracken iron mine and the adjacent Blackwood iron mine, including the vein of crystal discovered therein during the investigation, shall be used to refund the generous donations of coin and services made by outside parties in this time of crisis, for a period of no less than two years;
income from these mines for the following three years shall be granted to the Crown. [Game mechanics effects at Reader’s discretion]

II.B. Punishments levied against individuals

Ser Steffon Vance shall be executed in a manner determined by Lord Haig Bracken.

Maester Arran shall be executed in a manner determined by Lord Benjicot Blackwood’s regent, Ser Myles Blackwood. It is the recommendation of the representatives that the Citadel of Oldtown posthumously strip Maester Arran of his chain, and provide a new Maester of good character and peaceful disposition to House Blackwood.

Ser Tyron Blackwood shall turn over one half of the revenue income of his lands to House Bracken for a period of no less than three years, and his son, Jojen Blackwood, will be made ward and squire to Lord Haig Bracken.

Ser Olyvar Lucas shall serve as Warden of the Sept at Battle Valley for a period of no less than three years, living among the Brothers and receiving no incomes for his service. Any incomes earned by other means shall be donated to the Sept at Battle Valley to be used as alms for the unfortunate.

Ser Humphrey Piper will be removed from command and will be fined [amount TBD].

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having shown remorse for his crime and on account of his age, shall be forgiven with no further punishments.

[Yoren longshore]

My only question is why should we risk it? Why shouldn't we simply state who will be going to the wall? Or failing that we can simply sentence them both too death, but put in a clause that going to the wall is a perfectly valid responce for the both of them. We essentially put in a whole lot of "
what ifs"
for no apparent reason.

The only thing that makes it different from simply stating that they are to depart for the wall is the chance of completely fucking up the lives of relatively innocents if either party refuses. Perhaps you take it as a bonus if Wyll or Haig departs for the wall, but what if Tyron refuses? then Myles is the only one who can fill his place.

It's a bad idea and x-factors have nothing to do in a final document.

[Theomore Tullison]

I'd set it at 800GD (ransom for status 4 guy being 4 wealth in this linear world of ours, can't really see why Dunstan's ransom would be half the king's ransom). And also brand it as ransom, refusal to pay could mean that we hand him over to those he wronged for justice.

Tullison position is that anyone who can be proven to have a direct hand in the Blackwood Assassination looses their heads (may be persuadable to allow people to take the black instead of facing the prescribed punishment), and that if each house is to send one member to the wall, Steffon Vance would be ineligible on that account.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I personally think it best to focus punishment on those who have committed crimes. I think Tyron should go to the Wall, Ser Steffon should be beheaded, and his accomplices hanged.

Is there a different symbolic gesture that would suffice as an alternative to sending extra people to the Wall?

[Reader]

I personally think it best to focus punishment on those who have committed crimes. I think Tyron should go to the Wall, Ser Steffon should be beheaded, and his accomplices hanged.

Is there a different symbolic gesture that would suffice as an alternative to sending extra people to the Wall?

Fines, censures, tonsuring (public shaming effectively), exile, flogging, maiming, giving up a "
ward"
(read hostage). Sure your fellow players can think of more, will chip in as they occur.

[Septon Arlyn]

How about set the ransom (if we are going that route) to the damage caused? He is directly liable for the salted fields, and he admitted to using house Darry to raid from. If we hope his ransom as the cost for repairing the fields and the damage caused to house Darry it should be a significant enough to force him to either take the black and have it forgiven, or damage house blackwood, which given his fanatical devotion should be enough to force him to take the black to avoid the influence hit.

Still a fan of exile... It's cleaner and only punishes the guilty

[Yoren longshore]

The wall is one alternative (and probably the best one) but there are others. You can send them on a mission (tell them to join the fight on the stepstones for X amount of years), send them to a monastry (see Kyle Bracken) or say that they are needed doing the kings business (medieval times had ambassadors too). They could be sent to Dorne to serve for example.

On Kyle Bracken: He is another reason why we should punish individuals, what if he decides to take the fall and take the black instead of those we wish to?

[Septon Arlyn]

Tyron blackwood was responsible for dealing [-2 Land] and [-1 Wealth] of damage to house bracken. If we conclude that he is also responsible for house Darry (he was the one giving the orders to attack across the border as we have by confession, then he dealt another [-2 wealth, -2 land and -1] at house darry, and house darry requires an additional 5 points of compensation, maybe we can pin the larger part of the half on him. So if we exile him/send him to fight in the stepstone for 1 year for every point of damage he is responsible for then that would get us to 8 years, or twice his status exile from his house as a form of penitence/ rebuilding. It would also be a way to get him away form lord Benjicot as well

[Nathaniel Mason]

And... when Maester Humphrey volunteers to go to the Wall out of his fanatical duty to House Bracken...

Apologies, I had thought I had changed 'member' to 'knight' when Theo brought up Maesters. With that tiny change Maester Humphrey can be as fanatical as he wants, he can't "
save"
Ser Steffon.

Starting to become quite politically obvious. Sure you don't want to change it to "
knight of quality' to make sure they don't pull some nameless sworn sword knight out of the closet.

However, I highly doubt that the Master of Laws will sign off on sending innocent Status 4+ men to the Wall. Sets a very bad precedent.

First off, Ironrod does not get to sign off. He may disapprove and that would cost us (as per my comment above to Yoren), but we are acting with the authority of the King - he doesn't get to supercede that. At least, not while the King is alive.

Ironrod is Status 7 and the direct authority of the King in matters of Law. He absolutely outranks us. He may very well have been the man who drafted the document that give the Houses their authority in the first place. He is well within his remit to judge that House actions or recommendations are illegal or outside our granted authority.

Once the King's Peace has been restored to these lands, the throne charges its loyal subjects to bring the King's Justice to the guilty, both those wicked in action and those wicked in commission of the actions of others.

This is pretty clear on the limits of our authority, and demanding both Houses render up an unnamed sacrificial lamb (in the hopes it will be the person we want) seems to step well outside that authority.

[Loreia]

I would offer a choice of either exile or the Wall for Wyll. Though his acting was cowardly, he tried to manage the situation in his own way, donning a black cloak in the moment, if you will.

[Septon Arlyn]

Do you mean Ser Humphrey? Will is only responsible for the damage to break Darry's land after pursuing the fleeing Blackwood's

[Ereth Redwain]

I would offer a choice of either exile or the Wall for Wyll. Though his acting was cowardly, he tried to manage the situation in his own way, donning a black cloak in the moment, if you will.

What cowardly situation, pursuing an enemy that is breaking the rules of engagement by using Darry lands to attack his lands?

[Loreia]

Do you mean Ser Humphrey? Will is only responsible for the damage to break Darry's land after pursuing the fleeing Blackwood's

Humphrey, that's the one. The guy who directed the first attack on a Dornish caravan.

[Theomore Tullison]

Was anyone killed during the first raids? Maiming could well be appropriate punishment for banditry, though non-nobles probably hang all the same. Murder probably warrant axe or rope (with taking the black an option). But if Humphrey takes responsibility, then the rest might be left for Lord Haig to discipline as he sees fit for men that acts on orders not from him.

At least as far as knights and other nobles goes, I think it a good idea to stipulate that someone who can demand trial by combat may instead choose to confess and take the black.

On the Ser Tyron perspective, we (well, some of us) wants him removed from Lord Blackwood. One way to achieve this is to levy a fine on him of such size that House Blackwood needs to bail him out (landed knight he is, but it is not his domains, those are lands of Lord Blackwood that he holds in his nephew's name), or he must for example be exiled from the domains of Blackwood and Bracken under the pain of death for a period of 10 years. When that period is up, Lord Benji will have come of age and could decide to extend it. The trick being to convince Ser Myles not to bail him out, but I don't think that would be hard to accomplish.

[Reader]

Fatalities from the first raid near pennytree? Yes, a bunch of Dornishmen, else there would be someone left to interview.

[Baelon Drakeson]

My only question is why should we risk it?

Perhaps you take it as a bonus if Wyll or Haig departs for the wall,

but what if Tyron refuses? then Myles is the only one who can fill his place.

1 We should risk it if we don't want to be seen as blatantly over-punishing Ser Tyron. Seriously, a fine alone is not going to be enough to get him to take the black, and forcing him into exile/the wall would be far out of line with the normally expected leniency towards nobles.

2 To be clear, having either Haig or Wyl go to the wall is a benefit for long-term peace because it would lead to the next generation of these houses having been raised essentially as siblings in a relatively hate-free environment. IC I have no desire to see either of them go to the wall.

3 You are forgetting Ser Colyn.

Starting to become quite politically obvious. Sure you don't want to change it to "
knight of quality' to make sure they don't pull some nameless sworn sword knight out of the closet.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'politically obvious'. If it is that we are targeting Ser Tyron, I'm ok with that. Heck, it's right in the text. If it's a green/black or inter-house politics you are talking about, I don't see it... though I am starting to feel that some of the objections to this plan (not yours) are politically motivated. I'm thinking we should have scribes recording the IC discussion. The affected houses won't be able to interfere/object/etc., but all the politically motivated stuff will be readily transparent after the fact.

As for the quality issue, that's what the status requirement is for. It would be a tad bit preposterous for there to be an innocent status 4+ knight willing to take the black for them, yet we have never heard of them.

Ironrod is Status 7 and the direct authority of the King in matters of Law. He absolutely outranks us. He may very well have been the man who drafted the document that give the Houses their authority in the first place. He is well within his remit to judge that House actions or recommendations are illegal or outside our granted authority.

Oh, he can say whatever he wants about it, but he cannot unilaterally overturn it. That would take an act of the king.

Once the King's Peace has been restored to these lands, the throne charges its loyal subjects to bring the King's Justice to the guilty, both those wicked in action and those wicked in commission of the actions of others.

This is pretty clear on the limits of our authority, and demanding both Houses render up an unnamed sacrificial lamb (in the hopes it will be the person we want) seems to step well outside that authority.

We are deeming the houses guilty, not just individuals within them. Combined with the recommendations right there in the text should make it clear that the intent is fully in line with 'bringing justice to the guilty'. Any deviations from that would be out of our hands.

But perhaps it is best to end the OOC debate on this and move it to the IC realm where your suggested changes can be voted on, and I can stop being responsible for/tyrannical about the text. It's posted above, anyone can copy &
paste it in to the other thread. As I said before, Baelon-the-character has no authorial connection to this document.

Apologies for any typos or formatting weirdness, this is a phone post.

[Septon Arlyn]

well technically the salting of the warriors seat was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak that lead to the peasant rebellion. Not to mention trying to involve a secondary house in the conflict through dishonorable tactics... I think that we have enough on him to exile him. Unless the Darries withdraw their claim.

But I can only argue OOC as the making of the treaty was set for EA... and I am at the answering the dulvers insult

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