Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Septon Arlyn]

What about exile? If we can not force people to take the black, can we at least exile them? I know Daemon blackfyre was exiled multiple times, that might be view we can remove Ser seffon and Ser Tyron without killing them,


Unless you lot of black sneaky stabbers are simply going to assassinate them once we leave

[Baelon Drakeson]

I would also like to add that, unlike the Targaryens, I don't claim to be infallible.

You don't, but what about Loras Tyrell or Tywin Lannister? They aren't exactly the humble sort.

The point being that it is WAY over-simplistic to blame the Targs/dragons for the world's ills. It's not like things were any better under the post-dragon Targs or the Baratheons. Sure, the Targs have people like Maegor, but the Baraths have Joffrey.... do the Baraths have anyone to rival Jahaerys the Great Conciliator? No - but then again the dynasty is falling apart within a single generation, so it's not like they have had the time to produce a good king.

All that aside, getting back on topic... I've started drafting a single document that can be argued over/voted on... it is generally easier to wrangle over specifics than abstracts.

What about exile? If we can not force people to take the black, can we at least exile them? I know Daemon blackfyre was exiled multiple times, that might be view we can remove Ser seffon and Ser Tyron without killing them

I don't even know if we can justify even that much for Ser Tyron - remember that in general high-status nobles get little more than slaps on the wrist unless they offend even higher-status nobles... I don't think salting fields or disrespecting borders would qualify.

[Loreia]

Just join House Mormont, people. Find some dirt, any dirt, I dare you.

[Septon Arlyn]

So... If we can convince see Myles that having Tyron around Lord Benji is a bad influence, we might be able to force the issue?

Because I'm not really seeing how people are going to sperate Tyron and Benji

[Theomore Tullison]

If Tyron is a landed knight, he does have some domains to look after that Benji need not visit?

There's things that can be achieved by asking nicely.

[Septon Arlyn]

*raises eyebrows* yeah... that would work. Because Tyron totally is not going to continue his shadow war against the brackens when we leave #sarcasm.

I mean its not a perfect solution, I doubt its not even a moderately successful solution, but its the one that we might be able to succeed in.

[Samurel Manderly]

Just join House Mormont, people. Find some dirt, any dirt, I dare you.

give it a century and we have slavery

[Reader]

I would also like to add that, unlike the Targaryens, I don't claim to be infallible.

You don't, but what about Loras Tyrell or Tywin Lannister? They aren't exactly the humble sort.

The point being that it is WAY over-simplistic to blame the Targs/dragons for the world's ills. It's not like things were any better under the post-dragon Targs or the Baratheons. Sure, the Targs have people like Maegor, but the Baraths have Joffrey.... do the Baraths have anyone to rival Jahaerys the Great Conciliator? No - but then again the dynasty is falling apart within a single generation, so it's not like they have had the time to produce a good king.

All that aside, getting back on topic... I've started drafting a single document that can be argued over/voted on... it is generally easier to wrangle over specifics than abstracts.

What about exile? If we can not force people to take the black, can we at least exile them? I know Daemon blackfyre was exiled multiple times, that might be view we can remove Ser seffon and Ser Tyron without killing them

I don't even know if we can justify even that much for Ser Tyron - remember that in general high-status nobles get little more than slaps on the wrist unless they offend even higher-status nobles... I don't think salting fields or disrespecting borders would qualify.

My emphasis above: excellent idea.

[Septon Arlyn]

And of you make it in Google Docs and provide us with a link, we can all make comments on it

[Daveth Coldbrook]

I'm back from Christmas, and have just blitzed through this entire thread in one sitting.

I don't want to make any arguments off the cuff. I'll wait until Baelon's finished the document, and comment then. (Thanks for doing that.) Just wanted to make clear I'm not ignoring this thread.

[Yoren longshore]

I don't know if Keynes discussed the feudal economy.

You'd be surprised to know how much of it is just the same, I first discussed opportunity cost using cows vs horses

[Davain Bartheld]

So thinking it over, it’s impossible to forge a lasting peace between the two houses. There is just too much bad blood that no matter who we execute or exile the hatred will always be there. While crimes must be punished (to which we have mostly come to an agreement) we must find a way to stop the violence for as long as we can. We have discussed a peace keeping force and I think that’s our best chance. No one wants to be on the losing side and deploying a sizeable peace keeping force will stop any aggressive act due to the fear of the peacekeeping force and their supporting house joining the other side. While we cannot order this we can strongly recommend House Tully deploy soldiers at the no man's land to help keep the peace. We could perhaps phrase it in such a way that if Tully refuses and violence starts back up again as soon as we leave that he

[Baelon Drakeson]

While we cannot order this we can strongly recommend House Tully deploy soldiers at the no man's land to help keep the peace.

Yeah, very few of us trust Lord Gorman Tully to do anything... that man couldn't keep the peace between two pet rocks, let alone these two houses. 'Incompetent' is not too strong of a descriptor, I think.

[Septon Arlyn]

While we cannot order this we can strongly recommend House Tully deploy soldiers at the no man's land to help keep the peace.

Yeah, very few of us trust Lord Gorman Tully to do anything... that man couldn't keep the peace between two pet rocks, let alone these two houses. 'Incompetent' is not too strong of a descriptor, I think.

While this may be true most of us IC and OOC were not aware of the intwit that lord Tully is. Maybe if that were to be explained to us IC that would help us understand why people do not trust him IC

[Reader]

While we cannot order this we can strongly recommend House Tully deploy soldiers at the no man's land to help keep the peace.

Yeah, very few of us trust Lord Gorman Tully to do anything... that man couldn't keep the peace between two pet rocks, let alone these two houses. 'Incompetent' is not too strong of a descriptor, I think.

Pfft, I remember him being pretty competent at shaking down lousy Player Houses for $$. :8-):

Gorman Tully 4 EVA.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

While we cannot order this we can strongly recommend House Tully deploy soldiers at the no man's land to help keep the peace.

Yeah, very few of us trust Lord Gorman Tully to do anything... that man couldn't keep the peace between two pet rocks, let alone these two houses. 'Incompetent' is not too strong of a descriptor, I think.

While this may be true most of us IC and OOC were not aware of the intwit that lord Tully is. Maybe if that were to be explained to us IC that would help us understand why people do not trust him IC

I dunno. Seems like people are awfully eager to trust him with judging folks instead of the tribunal, IC.

[Septon Arlyn]

To be fair, Septon Arlyn has not had an opportunity to voice his opinion on that matter either. If I remember correctly there was a certain lord who was quite upset with the idea of a tribunal as well. Maybe they both have reasons to not want the tribunal to happen? Some underhanded hiding of witnesses from other houses perhaps? Like a "
dead"
innkeeper. (I even said a few months ago it was fishy that the green door inn was not a target of the bracken or blackwood fued )

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

lol, there were many things fishy about the Green Door Inn. I doubt we've even scratched the surface there. Not sure how much of it relates directly to the Bracken/Blackwoods though.

As for the tribunal, I'm fine with it IC and OOC. And if Baelon is the lord you're referring to, he was just mad because he was being judged for doing his job (as he saw it). That said, I'm sure he'd trust three people of Corrine's choosing before Lord Gorman 'the Goober' Tully.

...but then again, I shouldn't speak for others. My apologies.

Edit - Oh, and regarding the 'dead' innkeeper, you might want to wait until you see the whole thread before you jump to conclusions. :;
):

[Septon Arlyn]

Yeah, I know some police officers who say the same thing :;
-): nah it's understandable.

But maybe they do.

But I OOC know that he was spirited away with the coldbrook/Drakeson magic saviour chip. I already made an post IC about how IC I think he's dead :mrgreen:

[Nathaniel Mason]

There is always House Darry, if you want a deterrent to open war. It was generally feared by both Houses that House Darry would side with their enemy. (Mainly because their war would probably end in the favour of whichever side the Darry's joined.)

If the Darry's pledged to side with whichever House is the defender, both Houses would be reticent to attack first in open conflict, as they would have to defeat both their enemy and the forces of House Darry.

I expect the Darry's would go for that. They are looking to elevate the prestige of their House.

Mind you, this only prevents open warfare. It would do nothing to stop the cold war.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Some underhanded hiding of witnesses from other houses perhaps? Like a "
dead"
innkeeper. (I even said a few months ago it was fishy that the green door inn was not a target of the bracken or blackwood fued )

Alun? He's not a witness to anything we are tasked with investigating, so no big deal there. As for the GDI not being targeted, it is neither a Bracken nor Blackwood establishment, nor does it have any strategic value in their feud. It might have been targeted by broken men, but you don't rob your local pub if you ever hope to be served there again. :;
):

As for the tribunal, I'm fine with it IC and OOC. And if Baelon is the lord you're referring to, he was just mad because he was being judged for doing his job (as he saw it). That said, I'm sure he'd trust three people of Corrine's choosing before Lord Gorman 'the Goober' Tully.

...but then again, I shouldn't speak for others. My apologies.

No need to apologize, you know my mind on the matter.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Ok, here's the first draft of the first part: the crimes. Please check these for accuracy.
Thanks to Yoren for compiling info in the first post, it was an invaluable resource.
I made the assumption that our OOC knowledge would be shared. If there is something that is not generally known IC and would be kept secret, let me know...
The order of the crimes was determined on these criteria:

• Alternate between the houses[/*xoyt2mul]
  
• Start with what the King would find most heinous[/*xoyt2mul]
  
• Descending degrees of vileness[/*xoyt2mul]

Blackbuckle may be more heinous than the assassination in general, but from the perspective of Westerosi society, I think the murder of nobles would be considered worse than the massacre of smallfolk...

We the undersigned, acting upon the authority granted unto our represented houses by His Grace, King Viserys Targaryen, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Protector of the Realm, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Defender of the Realm, do hereby declare that the following is a true and accurate accounting of crimes committed by Houses Bracken and Blackwood, and a fair and just punishment to be meted out for the same.

Let it be known that these crimes were committed by members of House Bracken and House Blackwood:

Ser Steffon Vance and Ser Rufus Bracken, with the aid of various lesser men, did plot and execute the assassination of Lord Bryan Blackwood and his lady wife.

Maester Arran of House Blackwood, without the knowledge or authorization of others, did poison the well of the village of Blackbuckle, ending countless innocent lives as well as the lives of various Bracken soldiers and torturers, for the purpose of ending the suffering of Blackwood soldiers held captive and tormented there.

House Bracken soldiers, acting dishonorably without the knowledge or authorization of their superiors, did attack a merchant caravan from Dorne for the purpose of personal profit.

Ser Tyron Blackwood did lead a regiment of Blackwood Cavalry in the salting of fields in the vicinity of Warrior’s Seat.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did fortify their respective iron mines, depriving the crown of vital resources for the war in the Stepstones. Upon attack by House Bracken, soldiers of House Blackwood did fire the supports of the Blackwood mines in an attempt to render the Bracken attack profitless.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did violate the borders of their lands with House Darry, with House Blackwood using Darry lands as a point of refuge and staging ground for attacks and House Bracken, pursuing their attackers, did cause damage to Darry lands and holdings.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having recently been orphaned, did in his grief order an attack from under a flag of mourning upon Bracken troops.

Let it be noted that the sacking of the Septry at Battle Valley, previously thought to have been the work of House Blackwood, was found to have been the work of base brigands, operating under the auspices of Ser Olyvar Lucas.

For the second part, punishment, I intend to have four sub-sections:
Punishments applied to both houses
Punishments exclusive to House Bracken
Punishments exclusive to House Blackwood
Condemnations of other parties (Lord Gorman, Ser Olyvar, etc. suggestions welcome)

If someone wants to tot up some totals, that would be most helpful.

[Reader]

That is absolutely perfect, both in the IC style and considering what to list and how to list it.

My ideal was for the game to produce something like this. Look forward to seeing everyone hone this and the final version with the extra sections.

Many thanks to Baelon for his hard work and penmanship.

[Samurel Manderly]

One small correction: Rufus* not Rupert

[Baelon Drakeson]

One small correction: Rufus* not Rupert

That's what I get for just going by the first page summary.
Corrected, thanks.

I did look at the NPC page for the late Lady Blackwood's name, but alas, it was not there. I thought I saw it in a thread somewhere, but I've no clue now. If anyone knows, I would like to list her properly rather than "
and his lady wife"
.


Side note, I've long thought we were being played by House Darry in regards to the border breaches. With the recent findings that House Bracken did NOT damage Darry lands, I believe so even more. I strongly suspect that they knew about (and maybe even welcomed) the House Blackwood troops stationed in their lands, and caused the damage to their lands intentionally - if we meet their demands they would profit off of the damage.

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