Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Ech, whatever. If he doesn't get that sentence, it won't even matter. But if he did, it would be by vote, so it would be Corrine going with the majority. That's not capricious.

[Septon Arlyn]

Hm. There may be a difference between beheading, and setting a man afire, in the public eye.

One's a cleaner death by far.

But you're right...they're both means of execution. Tis up to you.

Well, if he's sentenced to burning anyway, he can hardly be beheaded beforehand.

Wait... When did we decide on burning?

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Yoren, why mad and capricious? She's the one who, in the official sense, is passing judgement, so it is perfectly within etiquette for her to carry out the sentence. Nobody would bat an eyelid at Ben beheading someone he condemned to death.

That was me actually, not Yoren.

Mad because burning is not a clean execution and capricious because you are sometimes merciful and sometimes harsh. What I meant is that no matter what you do, haters are gonna hate. Your enemies will make anything you do out to be terrible, whether or not they are - such is the fate of those of us who are seen as symbols or poster-children for various controversial matters.

Burning is also at least in the book associated with mad people: Aerys, Mellisandre and Aegon pops to mind.
Do not get me wrong: Yoren is all for burning, makes the final kisses so much easier

Well, it's not up to Corrine. It was suggested as his punishment, and will be voted on.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Hm. There may be a difference between beheading, and setting a man afire, in the public eye.

One's a cleaner death by far.

But you're right...they're both means of execution. Tis up to you.

Well, if he's sentenced to burning anyway, he can hardly be beheaded beforehand.

Wait... When did we decide on burning?

We didn't. It's been suggested, originally by Nathan, and will be voted on.

[Septon Arlyn]

Yoren, can you make a straw poll for that?

[Ser Walton Dulver]

We have two confirmed deaths, correct? Steffon, Maester and Possibly Ser Humphrey as well.

There's a (slim) chance thatSteffon gets away. He could do a trial by combat. We do have our good guy version of the mountan that rides, so I do not think he will win, but it is always a chance...

I don't think we have a good guy Mountain, but we do have several able warriors.

Good or bad- that's pretty much subjective. There will always be some more suitable men for joust, but if challenged man chooses the way, and we don't assume Ser Steffon to live up his knightly vows, in addition... Well, Walton can slice him into pieces, good ones can always burn whatever will be left :;
):

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Calling it subjective still supports my statement that we don't have a good guy Mountain.

I'm afraid that you would probably not be chosen for that trial. Sorry.

[Yoren longshore]

http://strawpoll.me/6546779

http://strawpoll.me/6546768

[Baelon Drakeson]

It's more like you recklessly bulking someone elses car, you have to pay them money for it. There is a victim, and victims gets an uprising. If someone bulked my car, I would want a settlement. If someone salted my garden, I'd want a settlement. If someone stole from me, I would want a settlement.

Let me flip this around: Why shouldn't we compensate the victims?

We are. The compensation comes in the form of having their livelihoods restored and their lives protected. No matter what we do we can't recompense the victims without it trickling up to the houses. It's just the nature of a feudal economy. If we add in extra fines to the houses and then give it to the smallfolk, they're just going to spend it on rebuilding anyway - or worse, it'll be taxed back into the houses' treasuries. At best, it's a waste of time. At worst, it weakens the houses too much or incites the smallfolk toward another uprising. It's just not worth it.

Good or bad- that's pretty much subjective. There will always be some more suitable men for joust, but if challenged man chooses the way, and we don't assume Ser Steffon to live up his knightly vows, in addition... Well, Walton can slice him into pieces, good ones can always burn whatever will be left :;
):

Avoiding getting into metaethical theories and such, let me just say that good and bad are not as subjective as you might think.

Also, if Ser Steffon calls for a trial by combat, he would be the one to specify what kind it is.

I believe the way it works is that the defender decides - whether it be the defendant in a trial or the person challenged to a duel.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

http://strawpoll.me/6546779

ttp://strawpoll.me/6546768

The second link needs an 'h' in front for it to work. If you edit it in, it'll be easier to follow the link.

[Ser Walton Dulver]

Calling it subjective still supports my statement that we don't have a good guy Mountain.

I'm afraid that you would probably not be chosen for that trial. Sorry.

no surprises :;
): anyway, it's good that Walton left- with his vitality and character, I'm afraid he would cause more chaos staying, and unfortunately, whole treaty forming looks like pain in the ass already

P.S. Well, Aerys (right?) ordered Starks to fight against fire, so my we don't order Steffon to fight against guillotine or something? Aerys, even if he wasn't best king ever, taught us creativity

[Baelon Drakeson]

http://strawpoll.me/6546779

ttp://strawpoll.me/6546768

Human readable translation:

[url=Mode to kill Steffon Vance][/url]
With 7 votes in already I think we might have a bit of voter fraud going on...

[url=Method for killing Maester Arran][/url]
Quick note on this one - the poison has been destroyed, therefore he cannot be killed by it.

[Theomore Tullison]

I suspect that mounted vs unmounted trial isn't codified by anything more than tradition and the whims of the judging authority..in this case, us.

Tradition might call for the defending party being allowed to choose, but it might also call for mounted combat as the standard option, since it's a knight's world.

[Yoren longshore]

http://strawpoll.me/6546779

ttp://strawpoll.me/6546768

The second link needs an 'h' in front for it to work. If you edit it in, it'll be easier to follow the link.

Nice catch, I put it in now :;
):

As for payments: It should be paid, it's been established by votes already. Payments is a big thing, and the right people should get it.


As for trial: I think it was established that the man accused is the challenger and therefore the champion we put forth will choose the weapons and whether to go on foot.

[Yoren longshore]

http://strawpoll.me/6546779

ttp://strawpoll.me/6546768

Human readable translation:

[url=Mode to kill Steffon Vance][/url]
With 7 votes in already I think we might have a bit of voter fraud going on...

[url=Method for killing Maester Arran][/url]
Quick note on this one - the poison has been destroyed, therefore he cannot be killed by it.

I allowed for multiple choices, so it's not fraud, just some people willing to accept several forms of punishment.

[Baelon Drakeson]

As for payments: It should be paid, it's been established by votes already. Payments is a big thing, and the right people should get it.

No one is arguing against that. It's just whether we make it one payment or two. Everything else works out the same.

As for trial: I think it was established that the man accused is the challenger and therefore the champion we put forth will choose the weapons and whether to go on foot.

No, I'm quite sure that the defendant chooses the type of combat. Why else would you be worried enough that I would call for a trial by seven to start gathering your own seven?

[Baelon Drakeson]

http://strawpoll.me/6546779

ttp://strawpoll.me/6546768

Human readable translation:

[url=Mode to kill Steffon Vance][/url]
With 7 votes in already I think we might have a bit of voter fraud going on...

[url=Method for killing Maester Arran][/url]
Quick note on this one - the poison has been destroyed, therefore he cannot be killed by it.

I allowed for multiple choices, so it's not fraud, just some people willing to accept several forms of punishment.

He can only die once...

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Yes, but people can be ok with more than one method, and so express what options they would consider acceptable. It's like the AV election system.

[Baelon Drakeson]

That's a fair point.


EDIT: Ok, just looked at them again. They are up to about 200 votes each, almost all on one choice. Not cool, whoever did that.

[Septon Arlyn]

So someone voted 189 times for steffon to burn?

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

That's a fair point.


EDIT: Ok, just looked at them again. They are up to about 200 votes each, almost all on one choice. Not cool, whoever did that.

Could it be a bot? That sounds excessive. I don't think anyone here would do that.

[Theomore Tullison]

Reader said something about the thing only allowing one vote per IP, so does rather sound like a bot.

I guess we better just do an IC tally at the end concerning the manner of executions.

[Reader]

As for payments: It should be paid, it's been established by votes already. Payments is a big thing, and the right people should get it.

No one is arguing against that. It's just whether we make it one payment or two. Everything else works out the same.

As for trial: I think it was established that the man accused is the challenger and therefore the champion we put forth will choose the weapons and whether to go on foot.

No, I'm quite sure that the defendant chooses the type of combat. Why else would you be worried enough that I would call for a trial by seven to start gathering your own seven?

Sorry if there was any confusion from my pervious posts - in part it is because the books/short stories (justifiably) don't nail things down. I'm assuming politics (who has the dominant hand), culture (knights are expected to be able to fight on horseback) and precedent (both foot and horseback present in source) all play a part.

My general view:
- Any melee weapons/armour.
- Either man is entitled to be mounted (this is a knightly culture) =>
In particular, trials of Seven are expected to be mounted (the only fully described case from the source material is on horseback. I don't think Maegor's is specified as being of either sort).
- Combatants can agree to fight on foot as there are several cases of this in the novels.
- Above all subject to political power qualification noted above: this is Westeros after all (for example, here House Marsten has royalauthority and could lean in to set conditions for any trial by combat as a result of the trial, much as the original royal mandate for this story specifies lances).
- Obviously abusing political power Aerys style ("
Fire, I choose you!"
) can be forced through if you have the muscle, but brings huge influence hits, scandals and rebellion.

[Yoren longshore]

Suggested new treaty.
A few issues are still under debate, but I just leave that for later.

We the undersigned, acting upon the authority granted unto our represented houses by His Grace, King Viserys Targaryen, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Protector of the Realm, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Defender of the Realm, do hereby declare that the following is a true and accurate accounting of crimes committed by Houses Bracken and Blackwood, and a fair and just punishment to be meted out for the same.

I. Crimes

Let it be known that these crimes were investigated by representatives of the houses of Marsten, Bartheld, Coldbrook, Dulver, Kytley, Longshore, and Tullison:

Ser Steffon Vance and Ser Rufus Bracken, with the aid of various lesser men, did without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors plot and execute the assassination of Lord Bryan Blackwood and his wife, the Lady Reina.

Maester Arran of House Blackwood, without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of his superiors, did poison the well of the village of Blackbuckle, ending countless innocent lives as well as the lives of various Bracken soldiers and torturers, for the purpose of ending the suffering of Blackwood soldiers held captive and tormented there.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did fortify their respective iron mines, depriving the crown of vital resources for the war in the Stepstones. Upon attack by House Bracken, soldiers of House Blackwood did fire the supports of the Blackwood mines in an attempt to render the Bracken attack profitless.

House Bracken soldiers, led by Ser Humphrey Piper, acting dishonorably without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors, did attack a [DORNISH?] merchant caravan for the purpose of personal profit.

Ser Tyron Blackwood did lead a regiment of Blackwood cavalry in the salting of fields in the vicinity of Warrior’s Seat.

Bandits in the employ of Ser Olyvar Lucas did sack the Septry at Battle Valley, falsely bearing the arms of House Blackwood and thereby did wrong to House Blackwood, House Bracken, and the Faith of the Seven.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did violate the borders of their lands with House Darry, with Ser Tyron Blackwood using Darry lands as a point of refuge and staging ground for attacks and Ser Wyll Bracken, pursuing his attackers, did cause damage to Darry lands and holdings.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having recently been orphaned, did in his grief and youthful impulsiveness order an attack from under a flag of mourning upon Bracken troops.

II. Punishments

The following have been determined to be appropriate punishments for the aforementioned crimes.

II.A. Punishments levied upon House Bracken and House Blackwood.

No less than one quarter of each houses’ revenue income shall be spent on reconstruction, repair and maintenance of lands and holdings, for a period of no less than ten years or until the lands and holdings of the house have been restored. [25% of House Fortune income must be for Lands, Population, or Wealth (only if earmarked for the relevant holdings)]

No less that one quarter of each houses’ revenue income, plus any remainder from the previous item after a house’s lands and holdings have been repaired or rebuilt, shall be spent on internal peacekeeping efforts, for a period of no less than ten years. [50% of House Fortune income must be for Law or for the previous item, no less than 25% towards Law]

All revenue from all the iron mines including the vein of crystal discovered therein during the investigation, shall be used to refund the generous donations of coin and services made by outside parties in this time of crisis, for a period of no less than two years;
income from these mines for the following three years shall be granted to the Crown. [Game mechanics effects at Reader’s discretion]

Bracken troops attacked a [DORNISH?] caravan. Although without the permission of their lords, Haig should still have kept a closer eyes on his troops. Bracken will therefore be compensating the caravaneers next of kin an amount equal to what was lost. This may be taken from the looting soldiers, or scattered loot, but whatever the soldiers cannot afford will be taken from Bracken treasuries. [Amount at Readers discretion]

House Blackwood salted some fields on House Bracken lands. Blackwood will compensate for this equal to what the damage to the fields is. This may be seized from Tyron Blackwoods lands, but what Tyron can not find the funds for will be paid by Blackwoods as a whole.

II.B. Punishments levied against individuals

Ser Steffon Vance shall be executed [in a manner yet to be determined. But this may be changed due to trial by combat.]

Maester Arran shall be executed [HOW IS UNCERTAIN] It is the recommendation of the representatives that the Citadel of Oldtown posthumously strip Maester Arran of his chain, and provide a new Maester of good character and peaceful disposition to House Blackwood.

Ser Tyron Blackwood [punishment determined by trial]

Ser Olyvar Lucas [TBD]

Ser Humphrey Piper [punishment determined by trial]

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having shown remorse for his crime and on account of his age, shall be forgiven with no further punishments.


Some things are still ongoing, so it will be changed.

[Baelon Drakeson]

I note some changes that were not voted on, so I have done up a new draft that reflects the changes [url=actually approved][/url] in language consistent with the original. Issues that still need to be addressed are in curly brackets (to distinguish from mechanics in square brackets) and will be listed out after. Additionally, I cleaned up some sloppy language from my previous draft regarding the role Ser Tyron and Ser Humphrey played in their respective acts, added the clause about ownership of the mines (I've assumed that was not controversial, as no one has argued for a change), and other such minor details that don't change the guilt or punishments (except, as noted, those approved by vote).

If I missed anything, let me know please.

We the undersigned, acting upon the authority granted unto our represented houses by His Grace, King Viserys Targaryen, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Protector of the Realm, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Defender of the Realm, do hereby declare that the following is a true and accurate accounting of crimes committed by Houses Bracken and Blackwood, and a fair and just punishment to be meted out for the same.

I. Crimes

Let it be known that these crimes were investigated by representatives of the houses of Marsten, Bartheld, Coldbrook, Dulver, Kytley, Longshore, and Tullison:

Ser Steffon Vance and Ser Rufus Bracken, with the aid of various lesser men, did without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors plot and execute the assassination of Lord Bryan Blackwood and his wife, the Lady Reina.

Maester Arran of House Blackwood, without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of his superiors, did poison the well of the village of Blackbuckle, ending countless innocent lives as well as the lives of various Bracken soldiers and torturers, for the purpose of ending the suffering of Blackwood soldiers held captive and tormented there.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did fortify their respective iron mines. Upon attack by House Bracken, soldiers of House Blackwood did fire the supports of the Blackwood mines in an attempt to render the Bracken attack profitless. These acts depriving the crown of vital resources for the war in the Stepstones.

House Bracken soldiers, under the command of Ser Humphrey Piper, acting dishonorably without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors, did attack a [Dornish?] merchant caravan for the purpose of personal profit.

Ser Tyron Blackwood, without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of his superiors did lead a regiment of Blackwood cavalry in the salting of fields in the vicinity of Warrior’s Seat.

Bandits in the employ of Ser Olyvar Lucas did sack the Septry at Battle Valley, falsely bearing the arms of House Blackwood and thereby did wrong to House Blackwood, House Bracken, and the Faith of the Seven.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did violate the borders of their lands with House Darry, with Ser Tyron Blackwood using Darry lands as a point of refuge and staging ground for attacks and Ser Wyll Bracken, pursuing his attackers, did cause damage to Darry lands and holdings.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having recently been orphaned, did in his grief and youthful impulsiveness order an attack from under a flag of mourning upon Bracken troops.


II. Punishments

The following have been determined to be appropriate punishments for the aforementioned crimes.

II.A. Punishments levied upon House Bracken and House Blackwood.

{For the damage done to the lands and settlements of the region, including but not limited to the attacks at Pennytree and the salting of the fields at Warrior’s Seat,} no less than one quarter of each houses’ revenue income shall be spent on reconstruction, repair and maintenance of lands and holdings, for a period of no less than ten years or until the lands and holdings of the house have been restored. [25% of House Fortune income must be for Lands, Population, or Wealth (only if earmarked for the relevant holdings)]

No less that one quarter of each houses’ revenue income, plus any remainder from the previous item after a house’s lands and holdings have been repaired or rebuilt, shall be spent on internal peacekeeping efforts, for a period of no less than ten years. [50% of House Fortune income must be for Law or for the previous item, no less than 25% towards Law]

All revenues from the Bracken iron mine and the adjacent Blackwood iron mine, including the vein of crystal discovered therein during the investigation, shall be granted to the Crown for a period of no less than five years. Ownership of the mines shall continue as determined by previous treaties.

II.B. Punishments levied against individuals

Ser Steffon Vance shall be executed {method TBD}.

Maester Arran shall be executed {method TBD}. It is the recommendation of the representatives that the Citadel of Oldtown posthumously strip Maester Arran of his chain, and provide a new Maester of good character and peaceful disposition to House Blackwood.

Ser Tyron Blackwood shall exiled {scope &
duration TBD}, and his son, Jojen Blackwood, will be made ward and squire to Lord Haig Bracken. {Alternately, if Ser Tyron elects to join the Night's Watch, his son shall remain in the custody of Ser Myles Blackwood.}

Ser Olyvar Lucas shall serve as Warden of the Sept at Battle Valley for a period of no less than three years, living among the Brothers and receiving no incomes for his service. Any incomes earned by other means shall be donated to the Sept at Battle Valley to be used as alms for the unfortunate.

Ser Humphrey Piper shall be {TBD}.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having shown remorse for his crime and on account of his age, shall be forgiven with no further punishments.

Issues to be voted on (in order of appearance in the document):
(Dornish question not included as it is currently under vote IC, we can just let it play out there)

1. Reparations for the salted fields/Pennytree attacks are to be included in the 25% of income clause? (yes/no;
if no, how much and to whom, specifically)
2. Manner of Ser Steffon Vance's execution? (beheading, other;
if other, what?)
3. Manner of Maester Arran's execution? (beheading, burning, hanging, other;
if other, what?)
4. Scope of Ser Tyron's exile? (From the Riverlands, from westeros, other;
if other, what?)
5. Duration of Ser Tyron's exile? (10 years, life, other;
if other, how long?)
6. Option for Ser Tyron to take the Black to keep his son in Blackwood custody? (yes/no)
7. Punishment for Ser Humphrey? (Lose a hand, execution, other;
if execution, what manner?;
if other, what?)

I would suggest that each of the voting reps only vote, in this thread, on these matters. One post with a vote on each to keep things quick? If we don't get a majority on an option for one of them, we can open the floor to discussion. Otherwise, I think they have been discussed enough - the ideas and opinions of the vocal *cough* *cough* are out there. Some of the options entail other decisions to be made, putting something for that would be helpful to resolving this as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Note that these option lists should not be considered exhaustive, I tried to keep them limited to options that had been discussed, are possible, and/or might be considered appropriate by legal precedent/stats/etc. Where appropriate, I have included 'other' options. Feel free to write in something else even if I didn't, though.

If any of the voting representatives would care to raise any other issues (Ser Olyvar's punishment, etc.) include those in your posts as well, we can include them in a second round of voting if needed.

Those of us that are NOT voting reps, let's keep our commentary in our house forums and let the voting reps do with it what they will? This process really needs to get wrapped up, and interminable discussion isn't helping.

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