Sorry all, hiatus until April (Edit: good news, may have new narrator instead!)

[Reader]

Hello everyone,

With a very heavy heart I'm afraid I'm planning to place the game on hiatus until around April, and even thing cannot guarantee things continuing.

The projects I was asked to take part in just before Christmas looks like being detailed and rigorous (a good thing!), but that means I won't have the time I need to allocate to this game.

Options:

- Wait until I get back, although depending on how the other project goes this game might need to progress at a slower pace, or end/continue without my participation.
- Continue without me, I pass my notes over to a narrator and assist them where I can with posts/emails.
- Wrap things up narratively.

I'm very sorry to all our old and new players - many of you put a lot of hard work in to this game, and I'm sorry it is about to be delayed (at best) by my mystery good news.

Can bounce ideas around here and set up a poll.

Very sorry, will expand more in this thread.

[Ser Alfred Haigh]

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I have long feared this.

I really don't want to lose this game. It's very dear to me.

I know that you have good reasons, but it is a bit frustrating to find this out and not be able to understand why. I know it's not your fault though, and I'm not cross at you. Just wanted to name how I feel.

To be comfortable moving on without you, I would need to be certain of another narrator being to your standard, keeping the quality of narration and properly honouring your vision for the story and keeping the feel right.
Another narrator being able to still contact you for some things would be advantageous. I also don't want to lose your friendship.

To be comfortable waiting until April to restart, I would need to feel more sure than it seems you can provide that we'd be secure and returning to normal again.

I feel, ultimately, that we should do what is good for the game and the majority of active players, as many of us have put lots of time and effort in. I would advocate having one or two deputy narrators as well, if it would help. Choosing who would take on your responsibilities would need to be careful though. There are people I would vote for, if they put themselves forward.

Lastly, I'm very sad about this. I am glad you have something new and good in your life, but sad that it isn't compatible with the game. I'll miss you a lot.

[Aerion Storm]

I'm not sure what the fix would be, but whatever lets us keep playing/posting -- and keeps the game alive for you to check in on when you can -- is the fix I'm all for.

[Kevan Lyras]

The writing was on the wall, even if I did not want to see it. Very sad to hear this, especially since we are not allowed to know the reason/project (eventhough I fully understand this).

Honestly, I have a hard time imagining a continuance with another narrator, but losing everything we worked on is not a good option either :-(

[Baelon Drakeson]

Hello everyone,

With a very heavy heart I'm afraid I'm planning to place the game on hiatus until around April, and even thing cannot guarantee things continuing.

The projects I was asked to take part in just before Christmas looks like being detailed and rigorous (a good thing!), but that means I won't have the time I need to allocate to this game.

Epic sadface. I mean, good for you, but also bad for you and bad for us. That's life, though, right? Nothing lasts forever.

Options:

- Wait until I get back, although depending on how the other project goes this game might need to progress at a slower pace, or end/continue without my participation.
- Continue without me, I pass my notes over to a narrator and assist them where I can with posts/emails.
- Wrap things up narratively.

I'll be honest, I don't really like any of those options, but I can't really think of anything else. I'm a little leery of even offering, but I could step in short term if others would have me (this story especially, having drafted a number of events for it), but I know with certainty that that I couldn't do it long term. I would also have to find a graceful way to step Baelon out of it, because there's no way I could run it and play him as a DMPC without problems.

I'm very sorry to all our old and new players - many of you put a lot of hard work in to this game, and I'm sorry it is about to be delayed (at best) by my mystery good news.

I'm sorry for you, too - no one has put as much work and effort into this game as you.


Corrine said a lot of what I am thinking and feeling, and said it well, so I'm going to quote her a lot.

I have long feared this.

I really don't want to lose this game. It's very dear to me.

This.

To be comfortable moving on without you, I would need to be certain of another narrator being to your standard, keeping the quality of narration and properly honouring your vision for the story and keeping the feel right.
Another narrator being able to still contact you for some things would be advantageous.

Also this. I know I offered above, but yours are awfully big shoes to fill, and to be frank, I doubt I could do it anywhere near your level. Not to mention that anyone that steps into those shoes will be compared to you.

I also don't want to lose your friendship.

Very much this. Very, very much this.

To be comfortable waiting until April to restart, I would need to feel more sure than it seems you can provide that we'd be secure and returning to normal again.

As much as I want this, I know it's a hard thing to provide. I haven't a clue what my life will be like in 4 months, so I certainly couldn't reasonably expect you to.

I feel, ultimately, that we should do what is good for the game and the majority of active players, as many of us have put lots of time and effort in. I would advocate having one or two deputy narrators as well, if it would help. Choosing who would take on your responsibilities would need to be careful though. There are people I would vote for, if they put themselves forward.

Of course this. I'll be honest, I'm not sure anyone could really live up to it though. There are some who have the narrative skills. There are some who have the game mechanics skills. You've got a really good mix of both.

[Loreia]

NOOOO!

Okay, it's out of my system.

We could wait and see first, wait out this hiatus until the end of April, and in the meantime vote on a new narrator if/when Reader can't make a solid return (require approval from Reader to go ahead, if we become impatient). Or maybe Reader knows a guy?

I don't like option #3.

[Nathaniel Mason]

I wish you best of luck and happiness with your endeavor Reader.  Sometimes we must make choices that will make us happy and sometimes those choices are hard.

As I see it, we have three options:

1.  Wait till Reader gets back.  Not a good option I think.  Last year when we went on hiatus till April, we did not restart till the middle of October.  I honestly don't think the game will survive another hiatus.

2.  End the game.  I don't think anyone wants to see this.  A great deal of effort has gone into the game.  Still more effort to transfer to the new servers.

3.  Choose a new narrator.  Frankly, I don't think we should choose a new narrator.  I think we should choose three.  There is simply too much work for one person to handle, and too many players to deal with for one person.

Of the top of my head, I would choose  Corrine, Baelon, Theomore, or myself.  

Corrine is easily the most active.  While she may not be the strongest in mechanics (something she would readily admit) she is very strong in narrative and past story, and is easily the most active.  While I rarely agree with Baelon on mechanics , it cannot be denied he is very strong in this area, and is a very active poster as well.  Theomore is also strong in mechanics, is an active member, and is usually fairly even handed.  While I do not post as often as the others, I visit every day and have the time to narrate. have both a strong grasp of narrative and mechanics, and have five years of experience with my weekly tabletop group.

It doesn't have to be three, it could be two or four, but it should be more than one otherwise the board grinds to a halt when that person is unavailable for whatever reason.  It also means that if one narrator must take some time off, there are others that can take up the slack.  Really, why the job of Narrator rests on the shoulders of one person for a game this size mystifies me.  I believe the previous games have faltered and failed for this very reason.  Certainly I wouldn't want the job of being sole Narrator for this game, but I would have no problem being co-Narrator for this game, and if you have three, then some of the more urgent issues can be hashed out by consensus, and the responsibility and work is spread to more than one person.  PMs could still go to Reader and could be handled by any of the Narrators.

I don't want the game to end, but I won't go into indefinite limbo again, either.  I think decisions must be made and we should not delude ourselves with optimism.  The list I gave is not exhaustive.  There are certainly others on this board who have the potential to narrate.  The question becomes, if the game is to be saved, will we step up and save it, or will we watch the game slowly die in quiet desperation.  I won't be doing the latter.  I will leave long before that happens.

[Kevan Lyras]

I agree with a lot of what you have written Nathan, including that the game will not survive another break and the need to have multiple narrators. But I also believe whoever is to be a narrator cannot be a player at the same time and if we would lose 3 out of the four you mentioned, we would lose some of the most interesting PCs (at least to me)

[Aerion Storm]

I think as long as boundaries were respected, the three (or two, or four) demi-Narrators could still keep their players going, just having another demi-Narrator handle scenes as needed.

[Septon Arlyn]

I have seen the writing, but had chosen to ignore it. But alas all good things must come to an end.

I have been fairly busy the last few months, unable to devote as much time to this game as I would have liked.

That being said I have been playing around with ideas, and could easily NPC the septon. I also have live game experience as well.

That said I think Baelon and Corinne are too critical to moving the plot along to NPC.

As reader can attest my personal form is pretty full of story ideas, and have even helped plan out a few events. Nothing near what I imagine the reader has, but a pretty solid start.

I would be willing to consider being a co narrator. But sadly do not have the time to devote full time like reader as doing

[Baelon Drakeson]

I agree with Kevan - I've seen too many games go haywire because of DMPCs. Even if the narrator isn't being biased towards them, it can (and will) be perceived that way when a conflict arises between the DMPC and PCs.... and the nature of this game is to have a goodly amount of inter-PC conflict.

That said I think Baelon and Corinne are too critical to moving the plot along to NPC.

Oh, I think the plot could move along just fine without either one of us being active PCs. Yeah, we've been central at times, but not in ways that others couldn't.
Baelon's actually never been central to the plot except in ways that we as players have made him central.

[Septon Arlyn]

Well I think Baelon and Theo provide 2 interesting sides to Prince daemon that we would lose it on if either one of you went NPC. And Lady Corinne has had a pretty central role since the treaty.

Nathan had been vital, but most of his stuff has been behind the scenes and could work well as NPC material that adds to the story without needing a PC to run it.

I have basically been playing Septon Arlyn as an NPC from the word go, from the longshore mercenaries to the weddings and hammers and halberds have all been directed at telling and fleshing out the stories, adding depth to the readers already rich world.

That's not to say that Corinne or Baelon would not be good narrators, just that they have important characters to advancing the story so far, and the Septon is much more dispensable.

That being said sometimes it is necessary to kill your darlings

[Theomore Tullison]

I think that we have two options:
1. Call it a game and start working on a new one.
2. Install a new head narrator.

April is a long way to go, and with no guarantees that we can get back to regular activity even then, I don't think we can leave that to hope.

Doing #1 is a whole other discussion, though in terms of narrators, I think we'd have a wider selection than in #2. I'm actually finding it rather difficult to endorse anyone other than Nathan if appointing a successor for reader, for various reasons, there's a lot of components needing to go into running something like this, and given things that happened earlier and other such stuff, some are less suited to pick up the pieces as opposed to crafting a new game in their own vision.

For my own part, I can probably contribute with loads of stuff supporting a narrator, but when it comes to actual narrating, nah, at least not this game.

I'm also having the opinion that this game needs Baelon, Corrine and whatever character I'm playing, though I'd note that Theo's pivoting seems to have worked nicely enough that he's a keeper. That's because of player agency, we've settled into our roles now, and we need PC's that can serve as "focal points", if starting over, I can see the players of Aerion, Jon, Ben, Gwyn and Arlyn among others possibly stepping up to pursue such a role, Nathan is playing that role too, but I do not quite see him driving Bartheld politics to the same degree as Theo, Baelon and Corrine are doing for their houses.

[Nathaniel Mason]

-Do not worry with Nathan becoming an NPC.  Most of what he does is behind closed doors and with an effective 8 dice in Knowledge (Streetwise), I know a great deal of what you all are doing anyway. I have ignored most of Bartheld politics (what little, if any, there is) since Davain took over a year ago.

-If you want to make a Head Narrator to keep the veil of mystery, that is fine.  There are those here that can handle Jousts/Melees, NPC interaction, etc, in an assistant-Narrator capacity while still maintaining their characters and not knowing the overall aching story.  We are all adults here.  Most of the time we can work out our issues without the need for a Narrator.  It's only when we can't that we need the Narrator for final say.

-I suggest, if that is the way you want things to go, we should determine a Head Narrator with a poll, then he can assign responsibilities to those who are willing.  (I like clear tasks and goals.)  If you all prefer one driver, that's cool, but it is up to the rest of us to keep the engine running.

-As an example, if I were Narrator, I would put someone (likely Baelon or Theomore) in charge of Jousts/Melees.  Such things can be resolved without Narrator intervention, and any questions would go to them.  (I know that this is what has been happening already, but it would become official policy.)

-You should all have a 'Questions for the Narrator' thread in your personal forums.  I have two, actually.  One for IC questions, one for OOC questions.  There should not be twenty people PMing the Narrator unless it is urgent.  (I average about 3 PM threads a month.)

-If this game is worthwhile, it must be worked for.  There is the possibility that Reader may come back, and at that time, perhaps resume as Narrator, join as Co-narrator, or become an assistant Narrator.  I think it is up to us whether there is a game for him to come back to or not.  As I said.  Unlike the last time, inaction is not an option.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I agree on multiple narrators. I think a main narrator and two assistant narrators sounds like a sensible way to go forward.

Nathan was my first and prevailing thought for head narrator, with Theo and/or Baelon (or someone else who is active and up to it) assisting, as long as all parties are willing to work together. I think the assistant narrators should be like mods to the head narrator's admin. All narrators should NPC their characters, and I think the three I name could do that safely and still be able to have a presence.

I am not willing to relinquish Corrine as a PC at this time, but I'm happy to help with non-mechanical narration in things I am not involved with IC, such as driving some NPCs and simple die tests.

[Theomore Tullison]

I don't really see it as an option for me to enter a narrator team to take over this game, I can probably help out with all sorts of other stuff, though.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Fair enough. It's likely to be a group effort, so helping out is a thing you can totally do.

[Nathaniel Mason]

I am not willing to relinquish Corrine as a PC at this time, but I'm happy to help with non-mechanical narration in things I am not involved with IC, such as driving some NPCs and simple die tests.

That's entirely fair and it seems many are of the same thought.

One of the problems we have had is that threads grind to a halt waiting for Reader's response for what amounts to trivial things (in the overall scheme of things). This should not happen going forward. It's not necessary for the Head narrator to RP every single NPC. Some NPCs like Mushroom, the King and the Princes should be persevered for the Main Narrator, but lesser NPCs could be assigned to volunteers when needed. They should just remain under that player's control if at all possible for consistency.

There is no reason why Corrine (the player) cannot RP in threads as NPCs Corrine (the character) has no direct involvement with. That goes for anyone really.

Regardless of who is Narrator going forward. Players should start striving for greater efficiency and self-sufficiency.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I am not willing to relinquish Corrine as a PC at this time, but I'm happy to help with non-mechanical narration in things I am not involved with IC, such as driving some NPCs and simple die tests.

That's entirely fair and it seems many are of the same thought.

One of the problems we have had is that threads grind to a halt waiting for Reader's response for what amounts to trivial things (in the overall scheme of things).  This should not happen going forward.  It's not necessary for the Head narrator to RP every single NPC.  Some NPCs like Mushroom, the King and the Princes should be persevered for the Main Narrator, but lesser NPCs could be assigned to volunteers when needed.  They should just remain under that player's control if at all possible for consistency.

There is no reason why Corrine (the player) cannot RP in threads as NPCs Corrine (the character) has no direct involvement with.  That goes for anyone really.

Regardless of who is Narrator going forward.  Players should start striving for greater efficiency and self-sufficiency.

I very much agree. I could certainly envisage sub-narrator as a more informal role, with less omniscient access than the head narrator.

I will happily take on some NPCs and help mediate OOC matters. Clearly defined roles should be set in place, as you have already said.

If I had more Photoshop skills, I'd make a Mason 2017 election badge.

Perhaps roles could be outlined in writing, people could put themselves forward for them, then we could vote?

[Baelon Drakeson]

Well I think Baelon and Theo provide 2 interesting sides to Prince daemon that we would lose it on if either one of you went NPC.

Baelon has had 4 interactions with Prince Daemon in-game. 2 face-to-face in story 1, and two one-way communications in story 2 that could have been done by another character, though more likely would have gone to Princess Rhaenyra.

IC Baelon lets the connection look stronger than it is, and of course he seeks to strengthen it. OOC.... yeah, Baelon's got the Prince as a Sponsor, but he tries very hard not to lean on that - the Prince isn't the sort to look favorably on the needy.

That's not to say that Corinne or Baelon would not be good narrators, just that they have important characters to advancing the story so far

I don't really see what, in terms of the larger plot, any of us players have done that is so fundamental. Yeah, we've been central to a lot of player-driven plotlines, but if that weren't us, it would (or could) be someone else. For the most part, the plots that Reader has set up have been character neutral - if house Dulver had been put in charge of the investigations, Walton would have been the ostensible head, but the Septon would have been the true driving force. That it was Corrine was not because Corrine was Corrine, but rather because Reader chose House Marsten. I'm sure there were PC related reasons House Marsten was chosen, but the fact remains that the "scripted" plots were independent of that. Baelon played a pivotal role towards the end, yes, but that was only because I had chanced upon the the plot threads that led to it - again, that could have been anyone.

I'm also having the opinion that this game needs Baelon, Corrine and whatever character I'm playing, though I'd note that Theo's pivoting seems to have worked nicely enough that he's a keeper. That's because of player agency, we've settled into our roles now, and we need PC's that can serve as "focal points", if starting over, I can see the players of Aerion, Jon, Ben, Gwyn and Arlyn among others possibly stepping up to pursue such a role, Nathan is playing that role too, but I do not quite see him driving Bartheld politics to the same degree as Theo, Baelon and Corrine are doing for their houses.

I see story 3 as a pivotal event where we really can make our presence known on the national stage - the G&B awards make that pretty clear. It's also a great opportunity to shift the inter-PC plots from the current (player-driven) focal points to new focal points. For instance if Triston were named to the Black Council or Jon married one of the Baratheon daughters... well, they could be more plot (player and narrator driven) significant than Baelon, Corrine, or Theo.

[This is responding to Arlyn again]
Really, no PCs should be thought of as "minor characters" or "player-run NPCs". As Theo said, the centrality of our characters was largely due to player agency - if our characters were central, it was because we (or other players) made our characters central - intentionally or accidentally.

-If you want to make a Head Narrator to keep the veil of mystery, that is fine.  There are those here that can handle Jousts/Melees, NPC interaction, etc, in an assistant-Narrator capacity while still maintaining their characters and not knowing the overall aching story.  We are all adults here.  Most of the time we can work out our issues without the need for a Narrator.  It's only when we can't that we need the Narrator for final say.

-I suggest, if that is the way you want things to go, we should determine a Head Narrator with a poll, then he can assign responsibilities to those who are willing.  (I like clear tasks and goals.)  If you all prefer one driver, that's cool, but it is up to the rest of us to keep the engine running.[/quote] So much of this game is the intricate interweaving of player plots and unintended consequences, I don't see it working without a 'veil of mystery' as you termed it. That's a big reason why a DMPC in this game is a bad idea, in my opinion.

I agree, if there are to be multiple people involved, there would need to be very clearly defined roles. I do not think it has to be one in charge and subnarrators on the side, though. Having a "narrative director" and a "mechanics director" as separate, equal positions could work just fine. When it comes to directing the NC motivations, attitudes, etc, the narrative director would be the ultimate authority. When it comes to NC mechanics, mechanical questions, event design, and so on, the mechanics director would be the ultimate authority. Of course, both could farm out NC control to volunteers on a case-by-case basis, as Reader has often done.

I think though that even if not involved on a day-to-day basis, Reader should remain the ultimate plot architect. Decisions about when and how major events occur, at least in a broad scope, should remain in their hands. That will help ensure that the game remains true to their vision. If we put a hold on Story 3 until we finish wrapping up the off-season, and slow the pace of story 3 relative to previous stories (especially as there will be many battles and such that can often run long), by the time we get done with Story 3 we will have passed April, Reader should have a better idea of what's going on in RL, and we will have an idea of how things are under the interim narrator(s), and can revisit what to do then.

-As an example, if I were Narrator, I would put someone (likely Baelon or Theomore) in charge of Jousts/Melees.  Such things can be resolved without Narrator intervention, and any questions would go to them.  (I know that this is what has been happening already, but it would become official policy.)

Well, more accurately whomever is IC in charge of the event typically makes decisions about IC matters like arranging lists and melee groups, rules of the events, etc.; in terms of game mechanics and such it is ultimately still in Reader's hands, though many matters that have already been ruled on or have consistently been handled the same way previously can be answered by anyone.

-You should all have a 'Questions for the Narrator' thread in your personal forums.  I have two, actually.  One for IC questions, one for OOC questions.  There should not be twenty people PMing the Narrator unless it is urgent.  (I average about 3 PM threads a month.)

I have a number of private threads for various things (including various notes to myself, which doubles as a place to post joust maneuvers, etc.), though not one specifically for narrator questions. It's a good idea, though. Even without that I average less than a PM chain a month - most questions can and should be asked in public OOC threads. Often the answer is out there already, or will apply to everyone when it is decided anyway. If it is something that has to be private, put it in a private thread, and if it doesn;t get a response (or if it's a timely matter) post a link to the question in the "narrator summoning thread". It's what it is there for. PMs should be a last resort.

-If this game is worthwhile, it must be worked for.  There is the possibility that Reader may come back, and at that time, perhaps resume as Narrator, join as Co-narrator, or become an assistant Narrator.  I think it is up to us whether there is a game for him to come back to or not.  As I said.  Unlike the last time, inaction is not an option.

This. To be honest, I don't think this game would survive another hiatus, especially one with an uncertain end.

Nathan was my first and prevailing thought for head narrator, with Theo and/or Baelon (or someone else who is active and up to it) assisting, as long as all parties are willing to work together. I think the assistant narrators should be like mods to the head narrator's admin. All narrators should NPC their characters, and I think the three I name could do that safely and still be able to have a presence.

I think separated by role makes more sense, with less potential for stepping on each others' toes or butting head over how something should play out. Just as a show might have an acting director and a tech director, with Reader as the primary director dealing with the big-picture stuff.

[Luecian LongBow]

Congratulations on the new opportunities Reader! Happy for you on a personal level though sad to lose your exceptional efforts running this game.

Catching up on the above posts but will chime in or vote as needed. On the positive side, we have many great players mentioned who could likely excel as the game's Head Narrator.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Having separate people for mechanics and narrative seems potentially good, though just one of each might not be enough to keep things moving.

From what I understand of Reader's notes, whomever became head narrator would have a clear idea of Reader's plans and overall vision. I think that's why Nathan is best suited, in terms of posting availability, quality, knowledge of the story so far, and I think the ability to be fair.

I think it's looking more like a group effort, with a couple of head bods who have narrator-like control, but with a few volunteers doing specific small jobs that don't involve their characters (like rolling/narrating NPCs in matters they're not attached to). What is vital is that everyone is mature about it and communicates.

[Ser Alfred Haigh]

Congratulations as well, new opportunities are always awesome !

On the board level, I agree that the game should go on, but am not really able to offer much of insight or much in the way of assistance save for some NPC fluffing, as mechanics isn't really my strong suit.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Before we decide who will be what, we need to decide what will be what.

So far the contenders are:

1. Narrator Team.
2. Head Narrator and Assistants.
3. Mechanics Narrator and Story Narrator.

Assuming there are no other viable styles, we should move to a poll.

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