Re: Sorry all, hiatus until April (Edit: good news, may have new narrator instead!)

[Baelon Drakeson]

As follow up, I started writing them shortly after "Ideas for the next story" thread had settled. It had already been decided that it would be the War in the Stepstones - I wrote within that story line, I didn't create it. Side note - that thread was a huge inspiration for writing them, so hopefully there will be something in there for everyone.

Also, to be clear, I would only want to take up head narrator/mechanics director for Story 3. It would only be an interim position for me, not a permanent one. By then we should know if Reader can take over again Even if that cannot happen I would want someone else to take over and I would bring Baelon back in (or a new character, depending on what was worked out to explain why Baelon is not active in the war). Of course, I have always been and would continue to be willing to lend a hand where needed.

[Triston Tollett]

I believe I'm cursed.

I've run ASOIAF games for well on 6 years. Can never get into a game as a player that runs more than a few months with me as a player.

Anyways, Reader, good luck to you!

[Loreia]

Fewest narrators possible with access to private PC information, and least characters NPC'd, is what I think we all value from the PC side.

Instead of choosing the roles and limit assistance to the head narrator, we should allow them to distribute the burden as needed and enable them to call on assistance from confident players who make themselves available for xyz.

Otherwise, choosing X for Y position would be locking people into those roles. What should happen if those people have to take a break? These roles should be fluid, being able to transfer a load from one willing participant as needed should the former become indisposed for xyz reasons.

So far, we seem to agree that Nathan should champion the role. I think that would be good for us and him, since periods of inactivity are mind-numbing for him, something which he has explained to that effect (add that to the list of reasons we can't grind to a halt a second time). I say we let him choose who will assist him.

I have cast my vote. Warfare and story are above me, but I can assume control of NCs in combat scenes as needed, and I've already done so.

[Triston Tollett]

I know I haven't been here long at all or have contributed one iota near as much as most of you, but I'd like to give my thoughts on PbP games in general and games structured like this one is.

To me, my first impression of this game is that it was very much structured like an old school MUSH. RP happens without an direction, or little, and that's a great thing. However, there's a lot of events, etc, that must be run and decided by someone. I think with a game like this it is VERY difficult for one person to be in charge of everything, mastermind everything, and conceptualize everything. I've run more standard PbP for YEARS, with 10-15 players, with basically straight forward GM driven RP, and even THAT is difficult. I couldn't imagine having to tackle the entire RP of this site myself if I was Reader. Mad respect for doing so, by the way.

This game is different than most PbP games. I think it has great potential, but from my very, very, deep experience in PbP and MUSHes, I think you need a team of people to work as some sort of administrative body for this game. There should be one person who has the overall say in the game, a veto, basically. Then probably, whoever is running each house should be his administrators to help shape the game (it doesn't have to be necessarily the OOC head of a house, but makes sense to do it that way).

That's my general advice off the top of my head. There's other ideas I would have in a way to shape the game, but those aren't for me to really speak on.

I hope the game continues to grow and is successful in the future.

[Septon Arlyn]

Fewest narrators possible with access to private PC information, and least characters NPC'd, is what I think we all value from the PC side.

Instead of choosing the roles and limit assistance to the head narrator, we should allow them to distribute the burden as needed and enable them to call on assistance from confident players who make themselves available for xyz.

I think that those people do not necessary have to have access to PC information. The same way that we each have private forms in our houses the Narrators and assistants could have a private narrator form to discuss important game events, while the assistants would only have access to the information shared by the head narrator granted them in said form, while the head narrator would be able look into everyone's private form and tackle problem as needed.


Also agree with you on the Nathan comment. I doubt you could be kept much busier then as the Reader has been for this game

[Ereth Redwain]

First, congratulations to Reader.

I think the only mechanics I can help with is the Joust as they are rather simple and can help move them along until it is something more important that could require a narrator like the final match or an important match like Loreia vs. Jon was. Other than that my skill with the system and RP would not be enough to be a narrator of quality compared to others.

What I hope for is a main story narrator with assistant PC's to run minor things like warfare, melee's, or jousts. While intrigues could be a case by case basis if the main narrator can't probably an assistant narrator can.

Then again if you have just a story narrator driving the main story and dropping story hooks for green and black factions it could be interesting. While the Mechanics narrator manages all aspects of combat I suppose.

[Baelon Drakeson]

So perhaps, what we should do is anyone who wants the head narrator role post here, and say what they're looking for in terms of help

I think you've got an important point here, but I think it got a bit lost, so I wanted to bring it up again.
There have been, so far as i can tell, only two who have expressed an interest in taking on the position: Nathan and myself. The rest of this post is written working on the assumption that we are the only two - should someone else wish to throw their hat into the ring (and anyone interested should say so) it might change some things.

So far, we seem to agree that Nathan should champion the role.

3 or 4 have spoken in favor of Nathan, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is a consensus candidate.
I for one have significant concerns about Nathan's views on mechanics and power levels; having an effective 8 dice in something may be par for the course in his home game, but this game does not involve Avatars of the Seven or polar bear riding wildlings or archers with 12d6k7 attacks and Triple Attack. Such things may be awesome, but I do not wish them to become the norm (or exist at all) in Dragon's Dance; it would, in my opinion, be antithetical to the tone and style of the game we have enjoyed for the past two years. Similarly, while the Festival of Masks was an amazingly flavorful event that led to some really cool roleplay and character development, I feel that from a mechanical standpoint it was problematic (as was discussed at the time, and need not be re-hashed here).

Tying these two things together...

If I am selected as [interim] head narrator, I would welcome Nathan aboard as a story narrator. I expect that for the remainder of this off-season and for Story 3 there should be little need for us to create new story elements whole-cloth, but there will certainly be a need to implement Reader's existing material and to work with player-driven narratives, incorporating them into the pre-written story, and so on. The skills that Nathan would bring to the table would be invaluable. I would retain "veto power" as Triston phrased it, and would handle the mechanical side of the game. The two of us would retire our characters (at least temporarily, while serving as narrators) and would have access to private forums.

Additionally, I would welcome the assistance of other volunteers to assist with the handling of NCs and mechanical events as needed. Such volunteers would of course be primarily playing their characters, but could be tapped to handle specific scenes as needed (much as we have already done with combats and such).

[Kevan Lyras]

So far, we seem to agree that Nathan should champion the role.

I'd agree on Nathan as well, following the comments of others that it is best to agree on a main narrator who should decide for himself how he wants his assistant narrator(s) organized.

With regard to power levels, Baelon, I think the fact that Nathan has discussed specifics from his live game in the OOC forum, where obviously different levels seem to apply, does not mean he would make similar changes in this game, so I do not this as a real drawback.

I would also like to ideally agree on a new head narrator who is willing to keep this role for more than just an interim time /only story 3.

Edit I realize that my initial comments in this thread were rather negative, due to my disappointment over Reader's leaving. I just want to take the opportunity to say thank you Reader, for the great game you have created and run for us and the awesome hours I could spend on it.

[Theomore Tullison]

Having 8 (effective) dices in something still means that reader allowed it, which is a different discussion (it rather sounds like something I wouldn't allow, but no matter.)

An issue with interim narrator that I see is that going back to playing a PC could be tricky given the knowledge one would have of behind the scenes stuff. More to the point, should reader return and thus the need for replacement is of a more temporary nature, there were strains on his capacity even so, meaning that it's probably a good thing that if we put in place a replacement now, said person will keep going.

[Nathaniel Mason]

I think you've got an important point here, but I think it got a bit lost, so I wanted to bring it up again.
There have been, so far as i can tell, only two who have expressed an interest in taking on the position: Nathan and myself. The rest of this post is written working on the assumption that we are the only two - should someone else wish to throw their hat into the ring (and anyone interested should say so) it might change some things.

Arlyn has also expressed interest.  Certainly anyone else that wishes to narrate is encouraged to come forward.  

3 or 4 have spoken in favor of Nathan, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is a consensus candidate.
I for one have significant concerns about Nathan's views on mechanics and power levels; having an effective 8 dice in something may be par for the course in his home game, but this game does not involve Avatars of the Seven or polar bear riding wildlings or archers with 12d6k7 attacks and Triple Attack. Such things may be awesome, but I do not wish them to become the norm (or exist at all) in Dragon's Dance; it would, in my opinion, be antithetical to the tone and style of the game we have enjoyed for the past two years. Similarly, while the Festival of Masks was an amazingly flavorful event that led to some really cool roleplay and character development, I feel that from a mechanical standpoint it was problematic (as was discussed at the time, and need not be re-hashed here).

Reader did not have a problem with my Knowledge (Streetwise).  In fact he enthusiastically approved it.  To be candid.  I have Knowledge (Streetwise) 3D +3B, Connections +1D, Knowledge Focus (Underworld), converts my 3B into 3D on Underworld rolls, +1D Pious.  for a potential 8D.  Given the dice I have been seeing you roll in certain area's Baelon, I am am certainly surprised you think this is overpowered.

Beyond that, I am not going to justify my character to you, Baelon.  Nor would I expect you to justify yours to me.  If you want to hold my decisions in another game in which you know nothing about against me, so be it.  If you have issue with what decisions Reader has made with Nathan, take that up with him.

As far as the rest.  You play a tabletop game every week for five years gaining 2-6 exp per week and see where it gets you (and I can make a polar bear rider with starting character gen).

Tying these two things together...

If I am selected as [interim] head narrator, I would welcome Nathan aboard as a story narrator. I expect that for the remainder of this off-season and for Story 3 there should be little need for us to create new story elements whole-cloth, but there will certainly be a need to implement Reader's existing material and to work with player-driven narratives, incorporating them into the pre-written story, and so on. The skills that Nathan would bring to the table would be invaluable. I would retain "veto power" as Triston phrased it, and would handle the mechanical side of the game. The two of us would retire our characters (at least temporarily, while serving as narrators) and would have access to private forums.

Additionally, I would welcome the assistance of other volunteers to assist with the handling of NCs and mechanical events as needed. Such volunteers would of course be primarily playing their characters, but could be tapped to handle specific scenes as needed (much as we have already done with combats and such).

The poll for style of Narrator ends on January 12.  That gives plenty of time for any of the active players to come forward.  Once that happens, we can hold a poll of the interested parties and the Narrator(s) can be decided at that time.  I think it's assumed that whoever is elected will have the support and assistance of the player base in general.

[Triston Tollett]

Is the narrator actually going to continue on as a player? That seems like an unwise idea in my view. The narrator should be willing to give up their PC as a PC (an NPC would be fine) IMO.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Is the narrator actually going to continue on as a player?  That seems like an unwise idea in my view.  The narrator should be willing to give up their PC as a PC (an NPC would be fine) IMO.

Narrators would NPC their characters. Depending on the style of narration, assistants may or may not give up their characters. It would depend on the amount of access they are allowed.

[Theomore Tullison]

Baelon's charm (which he had all the way from chapter 1) and Theo's deception (at least when treacherous comes into play) more or less matches the potency of 7D in streetwise, and are less restricted, connections being regional (though since it's just KL and Riverlands we're at it may not amount to much) and knowledge focus wouldn't apply to everything, I'd hate that benefit as a narrator when deciding when it comes into play and when it doesn't. And pious etc are things other PC's (such as Baelon and Theo) has.

Some people, or maybe just me, may hold the opinion that a more restrictive approach would have been prudent, but reader set his line where he wanted it to be, though I'd be cautious about allowing it pushed further along, even considering that there's been a fair amount of XP being gathered up. That is a different discussion entirely though, and after two years, going forward with as much consistency we can is probably something I think we're all agreeing on.

[Baelon Drakeson]

With regard to power levels, Baelon, I think the fact that Nathan has discussed specifics from his live game in the OOC forum, where obviously different levels seem to apply, does not mean he would make similar changes in this game, so I do not this as a real drawback.

It is not that Nathan discusses it, I have no issue with that - it can be quite interesting to hear about. It is that he uses it as a baseline to form opinions about mechanical issues. See for instance the recent debate about delaying actions. That is the issue I have.

I would also like to ideally agree on a new head narrator who is willing to keep this role for more than just an interim time /only story 3.

An issue with interim narrator that I see is that going back to playing a PC could be tricky given the knowledge one would have of behind the scenes stuff. More to the point, should reader return and thus the need for replacement is of a more temporary nature, there were strains on his capacity even so, meaning that it's probably a good thing that if we put in place a replacement now, said person will keep going.

Yes, well, if we can trust someone to be a narrator, I would hope we could trust them to so their best to separate IC and OOC knowledge. We all have to do it, and a narrator has to do it with every NC they run. Heck, I wrote quite a bit of content for Story 3, so I already have to do that to significant degree. If I am not allowed to go back to being a PC... well, such is life. You can't always get what you want.

Beyond that, my primary point in labeling it an interim position was to make two things clear. First, that Reader would always be welcome to come back and take over again, at any time, no questions asked or objections raised. Second, that I do not have an interest in being the head honcho long-term. While I am quite confident that I can keep this ship afloat and on course for Story 3, I cannot at this time say that for Stories 4,5,6 or however many there end up being. That could change; if not, there would be a story narrator by my side who would be naturally positioned to step into the top spot.

Arlyn has also expressed interest.  Certainly anyone else that wishes to narrate is encouraged to come forward.

I took it more as "I could do that" than "I want to do that". Happy to be wrong, options are not a bad thing.
I's still rather have you as my Story Narrator though.

Reader did not have a problem with my Knowledge (Streetwise).  In fact he enthusiastically approved it.  To be candid.  I have Knowledge (Streetwise) 3D +3B, Connections +1D, Knowledge Focus (Underworld), converts my 3B into 3D on Underworld rolls, +1D Pious.  for a potential 8D.  Given the dice I have been seeing you roll in certain area's Baelon, I am am certainly surprised you think this is overpowered.

Including Pious is a bit misleading, I think. It's like saying that Baelon keeps 9 dice on attacks.... when reckless attacking a prone enemy and using his pious variant. Sure, it can happen, but it's not going to apply all the time.

Beyond that, I am not going to justify my character to you, Baelon.  Nor would I expect you to justify yours to me.  If you want to hold my decisions in another game in which you know nothing about against me, so be it.  If you have issue with what decisions Reader has made with Nathan, take that up with him.

I never asked you to justify him. You are doing that of your own impetus. I am not attacking you, nor your character. I was saying that I do not want keeping 8 dice on a test to become the norm. Is that so unreasonable?

As far as the rest.  You play a tabletop game every week for five years gaining 2-6 exp per week and see where it gets you (and I can make a polar bear rider with starting character gen).

I can also make a starting character with 20+ CD and 10+ damage per DoS, or a character that has 15+ intrigue defense, keeps 8 dice on charm, and almost always goes first in intrigues. That doesn't mean it fits into this game. This isn't about your home game, or if it's good/bad/right/wrong - but the fact of the matter is that it influences how you think about mechanical issues. It seems like every time you weigh in on such a matter, your home game is the standard you use for comparison - but the problem is that sometimes what is a powerful exploit in this game is a mediocre showing at best in that game. That is the issue I was trying to address.

The poll for style of Narrator ends on January 12.  That gives plenty of time for any of the active players to come forward.  Once that happens, we can hold a poll of the interested parties and the Narrator(s) can be decided at that time.  I think it's assumed that whoever is elected will have the support and assistance of the player base in general

I am in firm agreement with Daveth that the structure of the narrator set-up is less important than who is "at the top of the ticket" should decide what help they need, and I agree with Theo that who is in these positions and how they relate is key. I said that I felt that poll was premature, and now I have strong reason to back that up. It's asking the wrong question. I think we should scrap that poll and start over - the fact of the matter is that if we hold ourselves to that poll, we run a real risk of having a narrator structure that while good in theory is destructive to the game because it is the wrong structure for the people in it. I for one would like to get this right, not just get it done.

It might not seem like it, but I have a lot of respect for you, Nathan. You are one hell of a writer, far better than me. You are extremely intelligent, and you have great ideas. I really do think you could be a real asset to the narration of this game. However, I also think that the game would be better if you were not the one making mechanical decisions. Similarly, I know the game would be better if I have a capable teammate handling the implementation and management of story elements and NCs.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Yeah, I think Nathan's explanation of his dice pool shows that it only applied in specific circumstances, and I think we all have something like that, so even if it was relevant to the discussion, it is not really a problem, especially if the Head Narrator's character becomes an NPC.

I agree that a permanent solution is highly preferable to a temporary one, so that is why, while I appreciate that Baelon is competent, I would prefer Nathan as HN. However, I would welcome Baelon being an assistant or taking care of combat mechanics, as that's his forté, as I see it. I think Theo or Arlyn, if they wanted, could be good assistants for similar reasons, though perhaps more intriguey.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

We can still keep the poll as an idea of what we like. I think the information can still be helpful, even if we don't use it.

Should we have a formal statement of who wants to become HN and set up a poll for that, to keep both camps happy?

[Baelon Drakeson]

Is the narrator actually going to continue on as a player?  That seems like an unwise idea in my view.  The narrator should be willing to give up their PC as a PC (an NPC would be fine) IMO.

Narrators would NPC their characters.  Depending on the style of narration, assistants may or may not give up their characters.  It would depend on the amount of access they are allowed.

I would in fact want narrator characters to be a step below NPCs - NPCs hatch plots and such as part of the story. The narrator's characters should not be driving plot - at that point what difference is there between an NPC and a DMPC?

For instance, Baelon could be called on to serve in a different part of the Bloodstones - so he's "there" but he's not involved with the same battles that the PCs are. If someone wanted to get in touch with him they could, but he couldn't weigh in on every happenstance or goings-on. He certainly wouldn't be actively shaping the story.

Honestly, the way Baelon's personal story was going there was a decent chance that Baelon would end retired as a PC (or dead) by story 4 anyway, so I' not too concerned about losing him. If becoming a narrator means a permanent retirement of the character, I can just up the timeline of his story and retire him now... one way or another.

Baelon's charm (which he had all the way from chapter 1) and Theo's deception (at least when treacherous comes into play) more or less matches the potency of 7D in streetwise, and are less restricted, connections being regional (though since it's just KL and Riverlands we're at it may not amount to much) and knowledge focus wouldn't apply to everything, I'd hate that benefit as a narrator when deciding when it comes into play and when it doesn't. And pious etc are things other PC's (such as Baelon and Theo) has.

Baelon's Charm is and has always been 6d6+2, not 7d6. I could easily have 7d6+2 for a measly 10xp, but I have viewed 6d as a cutting-off point of advancement; not counting dailies such as Pious.

Some people, or maybe just me, may hold the opinion that a more restrictive approach would have been prudent, but reader set his line where he wanted it to be, though I'd be cautious about allowing it pushed further along, even considering that there's been a fair amount of XP being gathered up. That is a different discussion entirely though, and after two years, going forward with as much consistency we can is probably something I think we're all agreeing on.

I've mentioned elsewhere that Baelon has not advanced in his starting strengths (charm and melee) since story 1. All that XP has gone elsewhere. Diversification is the key to advancement without power creep.

[Baelon Drakeson]

I agree that a permanent solution is highly preferable to a temporary one

My highest preference is a temporary solution and then Reader coming back, but with enough flexibility to easily transfer to a permanent solution if necessary.

We can still keep the poll as an idea of what we like. I think the information can still be helpful, even if we don't use it.

Oh, aye, I didn't mean it wasn't useful. Just that it shouldn't be the ultimate decision maker about how things are done.

Should we have a formal statement of who wants to become HN and set up a poll for that, to keep both camps happy?

I think that's a good idea, though I'm not sure what 'camps' you are referring to.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Thing is, Reader is probably not going to be able to be permanent narrator again. Sorry, but we have to be realistic. Self-sufficiency is far more desirable, because I know I'm not alone in not being willing to hang around for months on a maybe. I hope that you don't intend to make a fuss if you don't get your way.

[Theomore Tullison]

I'd be partially inclined to ask reader to pm everyone asking for their opinion about what sort of setup and what sort of persons they might be interested in seeing stepping into it. Could be that a very clear consensus might surface that way.

I'd offer a counter to the concern about Nathan maybe not being as strong on the mechanics as other people, the first is that I don't get the impression that reader's expertise is stronger than Nathan in that field to begin with (though their opinions may differ), the second is that there's a difference between being the final arbiter of the rules and someone who just plays by those rules, the latter can and should voice his opinions, the former has to try and make it work well for everyone.

Also, system mechanics is actually the aspect that can most easily be outsourced.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I'd be partially inclined to ask reader to pm everyone asking for their opinion about what sort of setup and what sort of persons they might be interested in seeing stepping into it. Could be that a very clear consensus might surface that way.

I'd offer a counter to the concern about Nathan maybe not being as strong on the mechanics as other people, the first is that I don't get the impression that reader's expertise is stronger than Nathan in that field to begin with (though their opinions may differ), the second is that there's a difference between being the final arbiter of the rules and someone who just plays by those rules, the latter can and should voice his opinions, the former has to try and make it work well for everyone.

Also, system mechanics is actually the aspect that can most easily be outsourced.

I mostly agree, though asking Reader to field a shedload of PMs is probably not realistic, since he's already too busy to read PMs.

I'm going to make a poll for voting on a HN. Would folks prefer to post their self-nomination in a separate public thread, or would it be preferable to PM me by Sunday night to ask to be in the poll?

[Septon Arlyn]

I think that PM to Lady Corinne by Sunday would be best.

[Aerion Storm]

I believe I'm cursed.

I've run ASOIAF games for well on 6 years.  Can never get into a game as a player that runs more than a few months with me as a player.

Well, at least we know who to blame. Damn you, for pulling those strings to get Reader a great new job opportunity!

[Triston Tollett]

Has anyone considered that maybe starting over from scratch is the best way to proceed? Sure, that would mean a change in the timeframe of the game, but it would allow for a fresh start. Switching narrators/GMs mid-game is very difficult. It will require a lot of catch up between the new narrator and old. Of course that doesn't address the vote for who the new narrator should be.

[Ser Alfred Haigh]

A fresh start may be one thing, but it also erases the work that has been invested by the players, which is always an icky spot. Me, I haven't invested too much yet, but some players have been here for like 2 years and that's a lot of investment and input that can be put to use story-wise. Or Im just being that guy who doesn't like to bin player efforts, but thats more or less my shtick. XD

In any case, I'm more of a fan of seeing the further build-up and the payoff for it.

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