Re: Mechanical discussion

[Loreia]

If another opinion helps, I vote we don't reroll for initiative. Just no thank you.

[Jon Cobb]

I don't see any compelling evidence for re-rolling initiative either. Step 9 says:

If there is no clear victor at the end of the first exchange, return to Step Two: Scene and begin again, having each character reaffirm their objective or change it (with the consequences that entail), choose a technique, roleplay, and take and resolve their actions. This process continues until all opponents have yielded or been defeated.

No mention of the initiative step there. There's no mention of the disposition step either, but that has its own subsection - Evolving Dispositions - which clearly states that you can (not must) change your dispositon at the start of each new exchange. Step 5, the initiative step, says:

To determine who tests when, each participant in the intrigue rolls a Status test (bonus dice from Reputation) apply. The Narrator records each result and arranges them in order from highest to lowest. The highest result goes first, followed by the next, and then the next highest until everyone has acted...

IMO, the tone of this section indicates that you only roll initiative once and that it lasts for the duration of the intrigue. There is no mention of initiative being rolled more than once, or even of exchanges - which might hint at initiative being something that should be re-rolled. So, all in all, I don't see any strong evidence that the intent is for initiative to be re-rolled for every exchange.

[Baelon Drakeson]

I don't see any compelling evidence for re-rolling initiative either.

It's a basic algorithmic loop instruction. You start at 1 and follow each step's instructions. In pseudocode, Step 9's instructions would be written

Code:

IF defeat = Y
THEN GOTO 10
ELSE GOTO 2

Nothing there or in any of the other steps says to skip step 5 on repeats, so for each loop you carry out step 5 as written - i.e. you roll initiative in each loop iteration.

I'm all for not doing so (and have not and would not do so in my home games either), but it's pretty clear that the rules say to do so.
Whether that's what was meant or not is a separate question...

[Theomore Tullison]

I agree with Baelon's interpretation, the disposition step has specifics for how much you may change it once intrigue is underway, which fits well enough with the idea that all steps are repeated. The wording of step nine is "
and begin again"
, which implies you do everything from there on, with the specifics of "
evolving dispositions"
in play.

Still, while rolling for initiative every round is no issue at the table, the delays caused here makes it something best avoided. Far better to keep the structure of A->
B->
A->
B so that each post has an action in it.

[Jon Cobb]

I don't see any compelling evidence for re-rolling initiative either.

It's a basic algorithmic loop instruction. You start at 1 and follow each step's instructions. In pseudocode, Step 9's instructions would be written

Code:

IF defeat = Y
THEN GOTO 10
ELSE GOTO 2

Nothing there or in any of the other steps says to skip step 5 on repeats, so for each loop you carry out step 5 as written - i.e. you roll initiative in each loop iteration.

I'm all for not doing so (and have not and would not do so in my home games either), but it's pretty clear that the rules say to do so.
Whether that's what was meant or not is a separate question...

Sorry, but an RPG rules text is not an "
algorithmic loop instruction"
and it's not written in "
pseudocode"
. It's just basic English, and the language is open to interpretation in exactly the way I stated. So no, it's not pretty clear that the rules say to roll initiative in each loop iteration, and I just indicated why.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Sorry, but an RPG rules text is not an "
algorithmic loop instruction"
and it's not written in "
pseudocode"
. It's just basic English, and the language is open to interpretation in exactly the way I stated. So no, it's not pretty clear that the rules say to roll initiative in each loop iteration, and I just indicated why.

Oh, forget I said anything - it's just not worth arguing over. I shouldn't have said anything in the first place.

[Leifnarr Longshore]

If I can say my opinion, I guess that (not counting the presence of possible Eloquent which make the whole discussion pointless) Initiative must be always re-rolled each round, as per normal Core Rules.

This is not a normal table-top game, so we really do not suffer for too much time-consuming that dice rolling give.

Each participant in an intrigue should just post in the same post BOTH his actions and the roll initiative for the following round.
So the opponent will immediately know whether he will have to wait or not before posting.

Furthermore re-rolling Initiative will give some more meaning to Status, otherwise Higher Status people will always suffer "
lower Status but Higher Persuasion"
rascals!

[Theomore Tullison]

High status characters are still as likely to go first though. It primarily dampens the effect of a lucky roll by the low status guy.

But the thing with these low status people is that high status score has a "
hidden"
bonus. First of all, if Nathan would be status 2? Then Dunstan (Status 5) can:
1. Decide that Nathan is beneath him, and pull that card to avoid being intrigued.*
2. Say: "
Hello, I have 3 higher status than you, I don't care about normal intrigue, I'm so important that I roll a single test, and if I succeed, I get what I want."


*Not in Dunstan's character to do that, but likely something Isobel would pull. Status 4's, and even 3's does this all the time in the books as well.

[Nathaniel Mason]

"
Hello, I have 3 higher status than you, I don't care about normal intrigue, I'm so important that I roll a single test, and if I succeed, I get what I want."

Of course, there is a risk to that strategy, since highest Influence wins in a Simple Intrigue and that might not be them.

The Objective also cannot be out of character for the target. Someone wanting to sleep with Nathan would easily be a simple Intrigue. Someone wanting Nathan to kill one of his clients would not.

[Theomore Tullison]

Ah, but there's the thing. Simple intrigue only involves one test.

So the high status character rolls. The low status character does not.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Ah, but there's the thing. Simple intrigue only involves one test.

So the high status character rolls. The low status character does not.

A simple Intrigue does involve a single exchange. But if your saying that the initiator of the Simple Intrigue is the only one that gets a roll in that exchange (regardless of whether they would go first or not in the exchange) I would have to disagree. I have always interpreted the line 'Involve a single test.' to mean a single Influence test for each within the exchange. (Similar to a contested roll.) If it was a single test by one party, they would simply need to meet the target's ID to get whatever they want.

I can tell you as a player, I would absolutely not tolerate being hammered in such a fashion. Nor would I expect a Narrator to allow the NCs to be handled this way.

[Theomore Tullison]

Hence why simple intrigue happens in two circumstances:

1. What you want to achieve is something that your counterpart does not need much incentive to do in the first place.
2. The sheer difference in power between the parts of the intrigue is such that the assumption that they might negotiate as equals is ridiculous.

It's rather harsh to pull this on a PC, so I'd be inclined to agree that it should not be done, but what I am suggesting instead is that:
1. Dunstan can set an objective (or consequence of defeat as I like to call it) that costs more for Nathan if he wins than what Nathan's objective will cost him if he looses.
2. Dunstan can quit the intrigue with much less fallout than if Nathan does the same.
3. Dunstan can get away with more favorable yield terms from Nathan, than Garret Snow can, all else being equal.

It's pretty much that, Dunstan's friendship is more valuable than Nathan's friendship, and Dunstan's time is more valuable than Nathan's time. Therefore, Dunstan can ask for more in return for it than Nathan can.

[Nathaniel Mason]

To a certain extent, many Intrigues (simple and standard) can be handled very swiftly if both involved are willing.

I often like to set out my yield terms from the outset. For example, if I was Intriguing Theomore, I might offer.

[My disposition towards Theomore increases by +1 step. In exchange, Theomore delivers a message to Lord Dunstan personally without reading it.]

If Theomore has no difficulty with any of that, then there is really no need for an Intrigue. If Theomore does not care about Nathans friendship, wants to read the message, simply is too busy at the moment, or doesn't want to be bothered, he can counteroffer or the Intrigue can proceed as normal.

[Dunstan Tullison]

I've got a rather noobish question..

Say someone takes a wound and gets a -1D penalty for all abilities - does that means his combat and intrigue defense gets lower as well since Agility, Awareness and all the other abilities takes a penalty as well?

[Nathaniel Mason]

I've got a rather noobish question..

Say someone takes a wound and gets a -1D penalty for all abilities - does that means his combat and intrigue defense gets lower as well since Agility, Awareness and all the other abilities takes a penalty as well?

No. Derived Stats are not affected by Wounds. The -1D applies to all tests.

[Dunstan Tullison]

Oh, ok. Thanks!

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I need help interpreting a roll, and figuring out what I need to do. I looked at the QuickStart rules, but I'm struggling to understand (possibly because of sleep deprivation).

It's Athelstan's roll: viewtopic.php?f=65&
t=493&
start=10

Apologies for the probably idiotic questions, but I'm still new to the system.

What does Athelstan's roll mean in play?
Do I need to roll anything?
If so, what?
What should my disposition start at?
What do I need to include in my reply?

Also, as an aside, how do I set character goals?

[Benedict Marsten]

I need help interpreting a roll, and figuring out what I need to do. I looked at the QuickStart rules, but I'm struggling to understand (possibly because of sleep deprivation).

It's Athelstan's roll: viewtopic.php?f=65&
t=493&
start=10

Apologies for the probably idiotic questions, but I'm still new to the system.

What does Athelstan's roll mean in play?
Do I need to roll anything?
If so, what?
What should my disposition start at?
What do I need to include in my reply?

Also, as an aside, how do I set character goals?

He is initiating an Intrigue(combat of words). The first roll is his initiative(status roll) to see who goes first. The second is his attempt to persuade you(if it beats your Intrigue defense he damages your composure by his persuasion rank x DOS.

You need to roll Initiative to see if you or he acts first.

Your disposition can start where ever you would like indifferent, amiable, dislike with in reason

Your reply will have to do with your goal in the intrigue. If you want to charm him the post something charming. If you want him convince him to do something give reasons why, etc. It helps to post your Intrigue defense and composure.

Character goals for intrigue or in general?
Intrigue is what ever you wish.
In general is set around a quality you wish to get.

He also offered a yield at the bottom(which technically he can not do both persuade/deceive and yield in same turn) which you can accept if the terms are agreeable to you or you may counter yield on your turn.

[Nathaniel Mason]

He also offered a yield at the bottom(which technically he can not do both persuade/deceive and yield in same turn) which you can accept if the terms are agreeable to you or you may counter yield on your turn.

As Baelon pointed out earlier. Yielding is not an action, so he can offer a Yield and if it is declined, or a counteroffer is declined, the intrigue proceeds as normal and he may continue with his action.

You may choose to yield to an opponent, offering a compromised outcome, rather than going down to defeat, if you wish. You can only yield
on your turn in an exchange, and your opponent may accept, offer a counter-proposal, or refuse. If you, in turn, refuse a counter-offer, then the intrigue continues, and you may not yield.

[Theomore Tullison]

Okay, so here's the thing: You'll be trashing him, so do not accept that yield of his.

You now have two options:
1. Refuse intrigue.
2. Engage in intrigue.

If you go with the latter, roll status-reputation, if higher than his, choose an action..you have the book to look at?

Your objective is whatever you want him to do if he looses. Friendship would be improved disposition towards you. Other options includes getting him to do something for you, agree with something you feel strongly about, anything words might achieve.

[Reader]

Vital announcment.

1d6ro1 lets you reroll 1s once. I know this is a topic some of you care about deeply! It works for any roll, just just roX (x= number to reroll) instead of rX.

[Theomore Tullison]

Since this may be relevant for things to come, how do you interpret the following bits:

p. 163:
You use your mount's movement in place of your own.
The steeds hoof and bite attacks (if trained for war)

p. 58
You must use a lesser action to control the mount in battle (if trained for war)
Must spend a greater action if it's injured.

I've played with narrators that have used the following interpretations:
-You must spend a lesser action every round to control the mount, and it then gets two actions of your choice (the charge action includes the control action, plus both of the horse's actions), and you can take your other action in between the horse's action if you so desire (like hit and run).
-You spend a lesser action before combat begins and that's that. Horse could either have two actions of your choice, or you simply use it's movement speed instead of it's own.

I can see a hybrid where you can choose between simply using your horse speed for movement or using a lesser action to give the horse two actions of your choice.

[Reader]

I prefer "
You spend a lesser action before combat begins and that's that. Horse could either have two actions of your choice, or you simply use it's movement speed instead of it's own."
It's easier for me!

Plus the odd extra test for non war trained mounts.

Steeds let you move at mount's pace.

War steed = +2 damage (p163), rather than the mount attacking.

[Theomore Tullison]

That +2 damage is going to create injuries and wounds across the board in the jousting mind.

[Reader]

That's only if the mount doesn't move:

"
If your mount doesn’t move during your turn, increase your damage on a successful Fighting test by +2."


In the joust, everyone is charging.

No bloodbath....

Yet.

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