Re: Mechanical discussion

by Dunstan Tullison Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:44 am

Do I need to roll Agility to stand up now? AP applies yeah, and all the fatigue points?

Also, is your dmg still 7 without the powerful thing Loreaia?

by **Baelon Drakeson** Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:16 am

Dunstan - as you are wearing armor with AR >
5 (pre-benefits), your options are:

Stand up as a greater action. No test needed, automatically succeeds.[/*chh6csyp]
Use a lesser action to attempt to stand up. Agility test, TN 9. If the test fails, the action is wasted. Remember that any fatigue/injury penalties will apply as well as AP. Unfortunately, if you took a fatigue to ignore your AP against the attack, it wears off at the start of your turn so it would not affect this test. However if you take a fatigue ON your turn to ignore AP it would be in effect until the start of your next turn, so you would be at the higher CD if Loreia attacks you again. Alternately, if you spend a DP to ignore your AP against the attack it would stay in effect one full round, and thus be in effect for this test but NOT against Loreia's next attack.[/*chh6csyp]
Don't stand up.[/*chh6csyp]

Also, if memory serves Loriea has 1B in strength, so 2-handing it would be 5(Base)+1(Adaptable)+1(Powerful per house rule) = 7.

by Dunstan Tullison Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:39 am

Thanks!

by **Loreia** Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:22 am

Some duel of the fates stuff going on here.

I'm right next to my shield, can I just grab it and come up with it?

by **Baelon Drakeson** Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:33 am

That's firmly in the requires-narrator-decision-making territory... the rules just don't speak on that. As written, you would have to take a lesser action (Interact) to grab your shield, then take whatever action to stand. Remember though, you are in light armor (<
6 AR pre-benefits) so you can stand up as a lesser action automatically, or make a TN 9 Agility(Acrobatics) test to stand up as a free action.

It seems a little odd, but it seems like trying to stand up as a free action carries no failure penalty... though I would say that at minimum you shouldn't be able to try it multiple times in the same round - else you could just keep trying until you succeed, which makes no sense. Perhaps it should be that you have to commit the lesser action such that no matter what you stand, but on a successful test you can 'reuse' the action... but it seems odd to have a different procedure for standing depending on armor type.

by **Loreia** Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:49 am

Well I will stand, so I will roll to try that for free. But I've just realized that whatever Reader rules on the shield Interact, I won't be doing it. I need all the DoS I can get vs Dunstan, and my 1-2 DoS with 1-handed bastard sword is completely negated by his armor.

by **Yoren longshore** Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:47 pm

So I have a quick conbat question: as I am no combatant I have little say in this matter, but as I read through the Melee tests it occured to me: is knockdown too good? To my unpracticed eyes it seems like combat goes, player one attempts knockdown, then strikes, player two attempts knockdown (or rises if opponents knockdown is successful) then he strikes back.
Should the knockdown get nerfed or the other actions improved?
Again I have no say as combat will literally be the death of me, im just putting it out there...

by **Theomore Tullison** Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:52 pm

by **Yoren longshore** Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:55 pm

Theomore Tullison wrote:yes

Love that reply :;
): I speak too much myself and can respect brevity.

by **Septon Arlyn** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:00 pm

Knockdown is very powerful, but it's also got a higher cancer chance of failure for people who are not simply combat monsters. Most of our pcs are combat monsters so people need that extra d6 to break through there super high CD. Average people only have a CD of less then ten. Most of our shielded characters are rocking with CD of more then ten. And with all this heavy armor a lot of people need to be doing 2+ DOS just to wound. Now in non honorable combats where you have more then person fighting grapple is a very powerful manuver. -5 to CD is huge. It's almost Sam automatic addition to dos. However in a melee grabbing someone for someone else to attack could be considered unsporting. That is why I think that most people avoid the other combat actions because it's considered not very sportsmanlike. Also not being able to weave in and out of combat without provking an attack leads people to run in once and keep swinging until the other person goes down or they go down because everyone's passive fighting is so high is almost a garenteed hit

by **Reader** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:03 pm

Interested in knockdown thoughts/discussion guys. Smile

Remember I've nerfed it already once (Armour penalty doesn't penalise a knockdown target's passive agility) - glad to see several knockdown attempts fail already because of this. Could always make knockdown target passive agility +x if people still feel knockdown is too strong.

by **Dyana Marsten** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:07 pm

I think it is very strong, I got knocked down like, 4 times in the melee. Or something like that.

I did knock Ser Florian down too, but that's because it's a good move. I didn't use it every single turn because I thought it a bit unrealistic and abusive, so I preferred to Aim or things like that. But on a powergaming perspective, I'd just Knock-Hit-Knock-Hit-Knock-Hit.

by **Septon Arlyn** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:18 pm

How about adding in an action
Withdraw. Greater action.

As a greater action a character may choose to withdraw from a combat with out provoking an attack of opportunity if they make a tn 9 agility test. This would give people a better chance to break off safely and not get hammered by people's super high passive combat while not making it super easy to just weave in and out of combat unless they build specifily for that and sacriface damage or fighting skill

by **Reader** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:18 pm

Options that spring to mind:

- Leave it as is (I've adjusted it in the existing house rules already remember)
- Add X to the passive agility of the target
- Make it count as your attack for the round
- Make it a greater action

Rofl, saw Arlyn's suggestion as I typed.

by **Dyana Marsten** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:19 pm

Greater Action or Attack for the Round sound appropriate, actually. It's really strong.

by **Reader** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:20 pm

NB - whatever we decide what take effect until the end of this story.

by **Septon Arlyn** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:21 pm

As far as realism goes being knocked down is a very bad place to be in combat. I know that real life experiences do not matter much but I have played in the sca and if someone takes your leg you have to get on your knees and keep fighting. That is generally a bad position as you lose a lot of mobility. And mobility is life in combat.

by **Kevan Lyras** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:25 pm

As far as realism goes being knocked down is a very bad place to be in combat.

Agreed on that, but I think the discussion is not whether the penalties of being knocked down are too much (have to stand up using an action, penalty for attacks, bonus dice for attackers) but I think knockdowns happen unrealisitically often. I'd say if two armed fighters stay close to each other (so no charging etc.) it would be way harder to knock each other down than the current success rate in game...

by **Theomore Tullison** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:30 pm

Septon Arlyn wrote:How about adding in an action
Withdraw. Greater action.

As a greater action a character may choose to withdraw from a combat with out provoking an attack of opportunity if they make a tn 9 agility test. This would give people a better chance to break off safely and not get hammered by people's super high passive combat while not making it super easy to just weave in and out of combat unless they build specifily for that and sacriface damage or fighting skill

I am going to put the counter argument in:

How about scrapping the passive attack if moving away from opponent?

As for knockdown, I'd replace the +1D to attack people on the ground with a +1b, same as they did from regular to GoT edition with attacking people on the ground from horseback.

by **Dyana Marsten** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:35 pm

Ser Theomore's suggestion is good, if it leads to less knockdowns. Surely it's easier to just Aim, then?

The benefit of knockdown would be to limit mobility, not increase dice astronomically with a lesser action.

by **Yoren longshore** Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:41 pm

I like Theomores suggestion, or simply make it an attack option, so that you won't be able to hit afterwards...

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:33 pm

Theo's answer is concise, but overgeneralized.

EDIT: holy posting-storm, batman!

How good Knockdown is depends on the attacker and the target.

Part of the reason so many people use it is that most combat characters tend to prioritize higher athletics than agility (higher weapon damage &
knockdowns over initiative and knockdown defense/recovery). 4 athletics against 3 agility, knockdown is a good, solid choice. It is a significant bonus to hit, and opponents will often lose actions to rectify it - again, most combatants favor heavier armor.

However, reverse that (3 athletics against 4 agility) and it is not a good move. The low chance of success supercedes the strong benefits. If we were all playing bravos no one would use knockdown, it would be a terrible option.

It is a basic tenet of strategy to strike where your opponent is weak and you are strong. Often that means Knockdown. Other times it means Maneuver. Sadly, many of the other combat options are just terrible against serious combatants:

Divided Attacks: unless you can outright defeat somebody with 1 DoS, you are probably better off focusing on one target. Two weak attacks are not as good as one strong attack. This also makes the Fast weapon property more or less useless.[/*2ftxx4o7]
Two Weapon Attack: first off, it means you are doing something sub-par with your off-hand. Versatility is a good thing, but not at the cost of consistent defense (using a large shield) or much higher damage/specials (a 2-handed weapon). That it takes a greater action just takes it from significantly sub-optimal to downright terrible.[/*2ftxx4o7]
Combined Attack: Doing two bad things at once does not make a good thing.[/*2ftxx4o7]
Pin - useless unless you have allies or take fatigue/spend DP to take advantage of it, then it can be quite nice... but we generally aren't acting in a team. Also, unless you have significant advantage in [/*2ftxx4o7]
Dodge - You give up any chance of weakening your foe (short of fatigue/DP) and in return you get the chance of making yourself more vulnerable.[/*2ftxx4o7]
Disarm - if your opponent is on par with you, this simple has too low of a success rate. Opposed rolls with the same dice have about a 50% chance of success. Rolls against a passive value of equivalent dice have slightly less than that (as you multiple by 4 rather than the actual average of 3.5). On top of that you need 2 DoS, so effectively a +5 to the TN.[/*2ftxx4o7]
Distract - Actually typically better than aim if you have cunning greater than your opponent's will. For some characters a decent option, often overlooked.[/*2ftxx4o7]
Knockout - VERY effective - If you can surprise your enemy. Not really an option in a melee or duel.[/*2ftxx4o7]

It's not that Knockdown is too good, it's just that it is effective against a typical melee character, and almost all the other options are crap.

Also, it is VERY historically accurate. Many fights between heavily armored folks ended on the ground with a dirk in an armor gap. Knockdown techniques are include in a great many combat manuals from the middle ages.

EDIT: Rather than make knockdown almost useless (i.e. make it a greater action, count as an attack [which used to be my favored solution], or make it a more-likely-to-fail Aim) we should fix some of the above options. Also, if you don't want to get knocked down, invest in more agility and/or balance.

by **Septon Arlyn** Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:06 pm

I do agree with Baelons post. Plus heavy armor should have same short of disadvantage vs light armor and I feel like within this rule set the only place where that shows up is in the knockdown action

by **Baelon Drakeson** Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:33 am

Light armor can be used quite effectively, if a character is built for it. It would be atypical for a westerosi nobleman though.

by **Loreia** Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:39 am

Light vs Heavy kinda already does, it's the trade-offs in the armor table(9-2) between rating(AR), armor penalty, and bulk. If you don't have a high CD, you're not gonna want armor with a rating that damage can easily pass. You just need to know what your role is in combat, or whether you want to be in combat at all.

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