The first to arrive. (closed D1 late afternoon)

[Yoren longshore]

In a dark corner at the back of the room the barmaid has managed to stow the unwanted ironborn. None of them seemed to mind overly much, their noiselevel was high enough to echo through the room regardless. Just as the innkeeper was walking over to offer them a private room Yoren sees a familiar figure enter. He rises to greet the man while his men is led to the back.
"
It's been far too long! How have you been?"

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth had decided to scout out the inn during the afternoon, before it became too busy in the evening, to get a feel for the place. Still, when Yoren greets him, he smiles, and waves his guards to take a table while he walks over to the Ironborn. "
Yoren."
extending a hand to shake. "
I'd say I've been well, on average. Certainly nothing to complain about."
he pauses a moment, as if remembering something. "
Oh, yes. And thank you for your part in Loreia and the others coming back safely. I appreciate that. How about you? Did your grand expedition help you back home?"

[Yoren longshore]

"
I brought them out there in the first place, I had to bring them back safely. As for how it went, I'd call it a success, even though my father may disagree. I assume Loreia has told you about our... hrm, big friends?"
Yoren looks at Daveth in askance before continuing: "
They thrive in their new home, and I feel that I might have saved them, but my father is still scared, unfortunately. If he had the only say he'd probably end them, and if they had the final say they'd end him..."


Yoren shrugs: "
That's the way it is isn't it? Their fear of each other makes them likely to act in a way that brings down the others wroth upon them... Not unlike our situation here, if I may say so myself..."
Yoren smiles as he motions for a chair: "
would you eat with me? What have you been up to thus far? Have you gotten a feel for the land?"

[Daveth Coldbrook]

I assume Loreia has told you about our... hrm, big friends?"

Daveth nods. "
She did."
though he doesn't elaborate.

Yoren shrugs: "
That's the way it is isn't it? Their fear of each other makes them likely to act in a way that brings down the others wroth upon them... Not unlike our situation here, if I may say so myself..."
Yoren smiles as he motions for a chair: "
would you eat with me? What have you been up to thus far? Have you gotten a feel for the land?"

Daveth nods and sits down with Yoren. "
I've been looking at the Darry border crossing."
he shakes his head. "
And everything I learn simply serves to highlight how little I truly understand. I think all of us can only see the merest glimpses of the leviathan swimming beneath the surface here, and in a week, there is next to no chance of any of us getting a true measure of the beast. Further injustices are all but inevitable come judgement."


Daveth angrily shakes his head, and leans back. "
Sorry, Yoren. I am perhaps being overly bitter. It is still early days. There's plenty of time to be dispirited later."

[Yoren longshore]

Yoren snorts softly: "
if you're despairing now, then you'll be done when we need you the most. I believe that we are here to find a solution firstly, then later on justice may be achieved. A week is not enough to get justice done, but it might just be enough to find peace and start working out a dialogue. Once that dialogue is initiated we stand a chance at getting justice."


"
Is not stopping further injustice and pain more important than righteously waving your sword, shouting what you yourself find to be just? I believe that sometimes the past should be left where it belongs: in the past."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth leans forwards, his eyes intense, his voice quiet. Suddenly, he seems anything but defeated. "
I believe that we are here as part of a political ploy firstly, though who and why remains relatively opaque to me. Though having said that, given that House Marsten stands to lose out the most due to being appointed to an impossible role, and that the new Lady of House Marsten flipped their allegiance from Green to Black, it's not hard to point in a general direction.

"
And as for your talk of dialogue? Surely you don't mean between Bracken and Blackwood? Because their problem is not that they don't understand each other. They do, all too well. All both sides need to do is look through their history for a litany of grievances that continue right through to today.

"
Believe me when I say we can't save them from that. All we can do is make clear to them that there *is* another path. The urge to walk it has to come from them, else they'll never walk it."
Daveth looks down at the table for a moment, before looking back up, and continuing, softer. "
Walking away from hate is more difficult than you might think. Perhaps strangely, it's a comfort. It helps numb the pain. Gives you the strength to get up, to keep breathing, when the rest of you wants to just give up. It's unreasonable to expect so much of a child."


Daveth snorts. "
Though I'm hardly one to throw stones when it comes to attempting the impossible, so don't let me dissuade you."
Daveth's eyes and voice are intense again. "
If you truly believe you can stop further injustice and pain, then go for it, and don't let *anyone* stop you."

[Yoren longshore]

"
I think you're underestimating children in general and Benjicoot in particular. I think he'll be a lot wiser. If we show him how I'm sure we may get peace from him. I think we can even get him to befriend his neighbours. The beast of bracken is another beast entirely."
Snorting softly he continues: "
With the right measures, however, I'm sure we can get him to see eye to eye with Benjicoot... All we need is to try, to work together, and ultimately reach a conclusion. The issue is that they can stop me, but they can't stop us."

Yoren seems to have thought this part in advance, as his voice takes a recitative tone: "
They have the same ancestry, the same history, they both wanted to be king. The events of House Mudd did little to quell them, and issues got even further out of hand with Bracken converting. A merging of the two houses would unite them for good. Kerry and Benjicoot, to be raised together at Darry land. Neutral ground to have them find together, any of their children would be cousins of the Brackens. A little further nurturing of a relationship and they may find together."

Yoren lowers his voice: "
for your sake, we need to solve Robb Darry too."

Yoren waits for Daveth to criticise his ideas of merging, but he stands calmly against it.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth closes his eyes for a few seconds before replying. "
I may indeed be underestimating Lord Benjicoot. I do not know him personally. Though how you can be so sure a boy so recently orphaned will be receptive to peace and friendship, I don't know.

"
I also have no idea how you believe Lord Bracken would be receptive as well. I suspect that the only way to get him to accept it would be at swordpoint, and what then? Tie up forces to keep him honest indefinitely? For as soon as the sword is removed, the peace will end, with added rancour proportionate to the duration of his humiliation.

"
There have been numerous peaces, sealed with numerous marriages, before. Every time, the peace was broken, with added ferocity from the bloodlust denied. What do you intend to do that is so different that your peace will succeed where others failed?"
Daveth's tone is challenging and querying, rather than being outrightly dismissive.

"
You also may wish to be more careful of House Darry. They have not weighed in on this conflict yet, but I suspect that's more due to pragmatism than anything else. To view them as not having an agenda here would be, to me, a mistake. I don't know what that agenda would be, but it's no secret that they are deeply pious followers of the Seven. Speaking of, what do you know of Ser Robb Darry?

"
And lastly, Lady Kerry is eighteen. Lord Benjicoot is only six, and while he obviously has a regent, he is Lord. For him to effectively abandon his lands to while away in Darry lands would be ... unthinkable. And further, for the union to be useful, it must bear fruit, and by the time the Lord would be capable, the Lady's prime years would be behind her. Not beyond possibility, certainly. But with increased age comes increased risk. There are good reasons why in most marriages, either they are of roughly equal age, or the woman is younger."

[Yoren longshore]

"
Bracken won't do anything while his daughter is in jeopardy. I don't know if they have a tight relationship, but if he abandoned his daughter most lords would abandon him in return. Benjicot could not attack either, as he's in Darry land. We can send him to squire there. He will grow old, his hatred will dull. He will learn to play by the book. He will grow to become a man. He will have Bracken wife, Bracken children he will be tamed. Sure, he will be opposed to it in the start, but soon he will find a sense of normality in the situation. He's young, we can help him to do what his father wouldn't."


Yoren leans in: "
My brother came upon a poisoned well in a desolated village. We need to know which poison has been used, so that we can start tracing it. We need a man who has dabbled in the healing arts, and for us that's you. Could you come with him tomorrow, he can show you the spot and tell you of what's happened while you can detect the poison. Will you come?"


"
As for the beast: He will have to bend. I will ride out tomorrow and start unearthing his dirty tricks. He's old enough to know when to give in. Soon then, his son will take over, and we will ensure that he is... suitably fashioned for peace."


Yoren gives a grim smile: "
Short term compliance is the issue, but accidents happen, and I have a well of knowledge to draw upon. They can tear each other to bits for all I care, but I won't let them leave a trail of death behind them. There is several final solutions."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
So, your plan is to send a young follower of the Old gods to the house that shelters Ser Robb Darry and those who sympathise with him ... for his hatred to *fade*? Even if you could get the current Lord of the house to leave his lands, that's a recipe for disaster.

"
As for helping your brother?"
he hesitates slightly. "
I can, but my medical skills are passable at best, and focused on the healing of physical wounds. I was lucky rather than skilful with my healing of Lady Moraine. House Drakeson have a maester with them, who would almost certainly be a much better candidate. I understand your father carries a strong dislike of them, but in cases like this, they really are the best candidate, and your father is not here."


At Yoren's final words, Daveth feels a chill as he picks up the association implied. Go on, deny that you've not thought the same and more - that the only way to make a lasting peace was simply to wipe out both houses bar the youngest children, burn all their histories, and start over.

Yes, I've thought it. But to simply murder everyone in your way? That's Ser Theomore's way, and it doesn't make it any less abhorrent if your objectives are good.

So, what you're saying is that you lack the stomach to accomplish what you want. Yoren doesn't. You don't have the right to judge his methods if you're not even willing to try.

Daveth's lips tighten. "
How is your brother, by the way? From what you're saying, your father was merciful towards him, at least."
the topic change was jarring in its abruptness, but it was the smoothest segue away that he could improvise.

So you take the coward's path. Lacking the moral conviction to make a stand for either means or ends, you close your eyes and let bolder men dictate the future. Show some shame, craven!

Daveth's eyes flash, and he waves a dismissive hand at his own question before Yoren has a chance to answer, and leans in, whispering quietly. "
Yoren, I understand why you feel the need to draw on that particular well, but it will *not* end well, regardless of your intentions. I cannot control your actions, but I urge you to find another way, even if it is harder and more prone to failure."


So be it.

[Yoren longshore]

Yoren nods at the first comment: "
This is why i talked to you first, because you are right. I was thinking of keeping him close so that he might still play with his friends, but I think that you are right, maybe another house is better suited. What house would you send him to? We need to find the best suited house possible... Would grenward be a possibility? You could teach him more civic ways to deal with issues."


"
Maesters serve their own agenda, anyone thinking otherwise are fools. A maester was most likely the one to concoct this poison, they serve their order first, and their house second. We need accurate reports on the poison, from sources I trust. I went to the false banners field, and it shows firsthand what happens when you trust the wrong people. When you have checked the poison i may visit their maester, and that way find out if he is trustworthy, but I won't let the fate of so many people to lay on the shoulder of a man that we cannot trust. Incompetence over omission, incompetence is at the very least a tool for learning."


Yoren nods sadly "
It is nothing I wish to do, and something that I will avoid if at all possible, but even if it dooms myself, it's better with me than Benjicot and all the other children. I've had a good run, the least we can do is allow them to have the same chance."
Sighing he tells Daveth: "
Before that action is done I promise to consult you, only when you agree that it's the only way will I do it. I've given people the final solution, my hands are bloody, but it's something I repent for everyday, and I don't want to add anyone to the list on my conscience. Only to defend the defenceless, only to strengthen the weak. Sometimes you have to doom yourself for others, surely you feel the same, leading a house? Surely you know what it is like. Some men leave nothing but misery, and the world sees enough of that as it is."

A small tear flows from Yorens eye: "
Sometimes even those you love have to be stopped."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
What house would you send him to? We need to find the best suited house possible... Would grenward be a possibility? You could teach him more civic ways to deal with issues."

Daveth pauses to just look at Yoren for a few seconds, before shaking his head. "
You've been away too long, Yoren. House Coldbrook could teach a young man honour, duty, and martial skill, and I could teach softer skills, but we never would. If you seek a neutral house, we are anything but - my mother is a Blackwood. But even that aside, in the eyes of nobility, we are upjumped peasants. House Blackwood is large, powerful, and prestigious. Despite the ties between our houses, it would be a grave insult to even suggest it.

"
The best house would be House Marsten. Lord Benjicot was to be Lord Benedict's squire before his parents were slain, and the Marstens are good, honourable people, with ties to both the Seven and the Old gods. The only mark against them is that the way this was set up, I expect their name will be mud around these parts by the end of the investigation."


He ponders a second. "
Failing that, House Drakeson might do. Yes, technically they're even younger than the Coldbrooks, but their Lord and Lady are prestigious in and of themselves, and as followers of the Seven as a banner house under us, who worship the Old gods, that might also provide balance. They are also two of the most incredibly talented people I know. Though I'm aware that your house's ... interactions with Lord Baelon may colour your opinion there."

"
Maesters serve their own agenda, anyone thinking otherwise are fools. A maester was most likely the one to concoct this poison, they serve their order first, and their house second."

"
Yoren, everyone serves their own agenda. Even me."
he pauses. "
I'm still not quite sure what my agenda *is*, here, but neither of us should doubt I have one."
a small smile. "
With luck, it'll be benign."
his face turns more serious. "
But if it would allay your fears any, the Drakesons' maester is one they chose, one they already knew. One already bound to *them*, now bound all the stronger. I trust in their capabilities and judgement, and they trust in him."
He considers a moment. "
Tell you what. Tomorrow, I'll go to Blackbuckle, which I believe is the village you're referring to? I'll hopefully have the maester with me. He'll use his skills to detect the poison, I'll use mine to keep him honest. In this way, we get the best of both worlds. We'll share what we find out there about the poison with you. In exchange, when you have traced the poison to its source, you tell us before you make a move. Now that we know to check the well, we don't even need to have Athelstan with us, so he can carry on a new investigation, and we just agree to meet up afterwards. Deal?"

Yoren nods sadly "
It is nothing I wish to do, and something that I will avoid if at all possible, but even if it dooms myself, it's better with me than Benjicot and all the other children. I've had a good run, the least we can do is allow them to have the same chance."
Sighing he tells Daveth: "
Before that action is done I promise to consult you, only when you agree that it's the only way will I do it. I've given people the final solution, my hands are bloody, but it's something I repent for everyday, and I don't want to add anyone to the list on my conscience. Only to defend the defenceless, only to strengthen the weak. Sometimes you have to doom yourself for others, surely you feel the same, leading a house? Surely you know what it is like. Some men leave nothing but misery, and the world sees enough of that as it is."

A small tear flows from Yorens eye: "
Sometimes even those you love have to be stopped."

Daveth pauses for a few seconds, before answering with a seeming non sequitur. "
There's a man, who'll remain nameless, who I hate more than anyone. His objectives are benign, even commendable - he simply wants to advance his house's interests."
he shrugs. "
Just about every noble shares that goal, including me. There's no criticising that. But he realised a simple truth. Everyone pretends to obey a system of honour, but practically no-one does. However, the vast majority of people stay within a stone's throw, and everyone knows that, and expects it. Our entire system of governance relies on this. What he realised is that so long as the vast majority remain within that stone's throw, individuals may in fact, so long as they are subtle, pay absolutely no attention to honour. Violate every oath, every more, every shred of decency and morality that defines the best of humanity. And people will see what they expect to see. But when there are too many such people, society realises that oaths are meaningless, loyalty a myth, and that honour and decency are dead;
and the whole edifice of society collapses. In this way, he is a parasite on society, and the honourable in particular."
Daveth leans even closer, and hisses his last line. "
Means *matter*, Yoren. No matter how noble the goal."
he leans back slightly, and goes back to whispering. "
I've ripped out parts of my heart for my House's interests, more than once. I'm not going to tear strips off my soul for the sake of someone else's. Hatred and blood couldn't get me to walk that path. Nor will friendship and tears."

[Yoren longshore]

(sorry, messed up....)

[Yoren longshore]

"
I believe Marsten to be better than Drakeson, you, cannot get more black than the son of a certain man. Not saying black is the wrong way to go, but you should be wary of keeping status quo. Bring him up with Drakeson would only raise suspicion from certain parts of the kingdom, a taint young Benjicot don't need."
shrugging he adds: "
I think it's better to have insult him with a weak house than it is to taint his name with a dark hue."

Yoren makes certain to avoid speaking too freely on the matter of green or black, at the very least he has enough caution to avoid such a dangerous topic.

Then he leans in to mention something else: "
I'd also like for the two bastards to be kept at arms length, we don't want a repeat of the duel last year, eyes are a scarce commodity."


"
I agree, we can let Athelstan do what he wants, I'll tell him that you won't need him."
Yoren looks at Daveth: "
But if he wants to come even still, is that allright for you to have him with you?"


"
Why not expose such a man, a danger is always easier to deal with in the light. Even one who challenges our perspective of decency. Ripping out your heart for a house is something else than ripping out your soul for the people under the house, remember that. A house is just a symbol of old, a flag in the wind, the people under a house is what matters."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
I would simply point out that in terms of colour, House Drakeson, House Coldbrook, and House Marsten are all of the same shade. As is Blackwood, at least for now. The different degrees of 'taint' will likely matter little relative to that.

"
I am very much aware that Athelstan is a talented person, and the man who he likely hates most of all is both my friend and my banner lord. Athelstan can come, if you are willing to swear on your honour that he will do me and mine no harm.

"
And I do not expose them for it beyond my capability, and were I to succeed, the damage to the innocent, not least myself, would be far greater than the damage to the guilty;
and were I to fail, I would likely die. But let us not get sidetracked. I disagree with you - a house is not a symbol. A house *is* the people that make it up. Family, friends, people you're responsible for. Everything around it - flags, symbols, all that, are simply tools for identification. My family crest could change tomorrow, and I wouldn't shed one single tear."

[Yoren longshore]

"
Taint is everything. If people cannot see how black the kettle is, they won't call it black. You are all equally persistent in your colouring, but you seem less persistent, as you don't have the same ties."


Yoren just shrugs: "
Even if I did promise, would you trust me? Athelstan can go elsewhere, after all, we wouldn't want a incident."


"
But the house IS a symbol, if Coldbrook changed it's banners tomorrow the lords would not know it, people who only associated you with your banner will view you as new. Your entire reputation would be stained. Legitimacy given through your wax signature would be worth less than nothing. Your wax rings would be thrown, and some triksters could find them and use it to rack up great bills with merchants. Your reputation is a part of yourself, and it is a big part of why people trust you. You might not shed a tear, but many an impoverished merchant would curse your name."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
I trusted you with Loreia. Have I ever given you the impression that I don't trust you? But I suspect you may be right. There is tension between my house and any Ironborn, and I'm not convinced Athelstan is the right person to get over that."


Daveth shrugs. "
There would be losses, true. It would take time to build back up. But I don't make the sacrifices I do for my house for the sake of not impoverishing merchants. I do it for the sake of my family and friends' future. Likewise, I don't have this relationship with you because of politics. Our houses may be enemies in the future, and I feel there's relatively little we can offer each other politically. I have this relationship because I consider you a fellow scholar, and because you chose to trust me when you didn't have to. The personal over the political."

[Yoren longshore]

"
Athelstan is not all that bad. He's brutish, yes, but once you get over his rough demeanour he isn't all that bad. I've grown fond of him, though I'll never get over his smell, Ibb sailors could learn from him."
Yoren winks to Daveth.

"
Sadly it's quite likely we'll be enemies in the future, but what tomorrow brings is nothing I'm able to predict. R'hllor only knows what the next day brings, but I won't be your enemy, even if we come on opposite sides. Me trusting you seems to be a wise decision, I'm glad I did. Trust is what makes friends, when you put your head on the chopping block and people decide not to strike, then you know that you can trust them. And having seen you in that position of vulnerability the idea is that they'll trust you too, as they've seen your vulnerable side."


"
How are things up north? Has your brother adapted well to not being the heir? Sweeping the streets he could have owned. You seem to have a good network around you, so people seems to agree with your decision."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth snorts in amusement at Yoren's description of Athelstan.

However, his face darkens at Yoren's next words, and goes back to a whisper. "
'Quite likely'? House Longshore is looking to leave neutrality to favour House Hightower over the Throne?

"
Things are going well up North, actually. My brother's spending plenty of time with the Riveroad Riders, and chasing after women, having a grand time. And all can see the development I'm doing with our economy."
he shrugs. "
It helps that neither me nor my brother are particularly ambitious. So far, everyone seems happy with how things turned out. Let's hope that continues."

[Yoren longshore]

"
The throne is split, either way you'll go against the throne. Both sides have merit to their claim, which makes it all the harder. We'll be friends regardless, but I fear that neither of us will have a say. Regardless where the riverlands fall, they'll wish to throw us out to the sea. Your own bannerman can throw quite the weight, and you can be sure that he'll go against Athelstan. If Athelstan slays him, it's all the worse. Where my father stands I have no idea, he's blue, like the sea, neither like the grass or like the night. You'll always find a friend in his halls, but you'll have to do what's best for yourself, I won't allow you to do otherwise. We'll most likely stay neutral, but that won't matter."


"
Everyone being happy should be any lord's primary concern. Especially in times like these. You'll do a good job."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth shakes his head. "
There is only one Iron Throne, and it is the King who sits there. He has led us through twenty-two years of prosperity, and he firmly believes he knows who would best continue his work. I see no reason to doubt him."


Daveth considers carefully for a few moments before continuing, very quietly. "
Speaking frankly, I prefer a world where our houses are not at odds. I wish to make it absolutely clear that I have absolutely no guarantee of success, but ... I am aware of your father's illness, and it appears I have more talent than I thought healing the unhealable. If I were to try, and succeed, in healing your father of his illness, could I ask that, in exchange, your house abandons neutrality and takes on a darker hue?"

[Yoren longshore]

Yoren shrugs: "
That's a key argument. Plus, you'll have to admit, that she has proven her capabilities herself, don't forget that. On the other hand, the council set the rules, and that's a key factor, as lords wish to think they have a say in succession. Having the support of the kingdoms breadbasket is also a benefit. I'm an avid advocate of neutrality and solving this in a peaceful way, like the last great council. It's not me that needs convincing, it's my father. You curing his illness is certainly something that may change things. You bartering in advance would make it all the more likely that he'll be changing to a darker hue. I'd love for you to try, and so would he, and we are both aware that you cannot work miracles, but an attempt would be much appreciated."

"
How's your private life going? If we were to introduce you to Alya and if she fancies you, we'd all but ascertain our support, she's the angel in my father's life. Swaying her would be as good for you as curing my father."
Yoren asks directly, knowing that taking the bull by it's horn is a lot less awkward.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
I believe that so long as they believe they stand a chance at the throne, neither side will back down. And yes, the Riverlands are key, controlling access to both the Vale and the North. Frankly, the only way I can see for this to end peacefully is for the Queen to doubt she would win if she pressed her claim. Hence, every house that I bring over, I view as one step towards peace."
a small smile. "
A small step, I admit. But I have to at least do my bit for the realm.

"
Tell you what, I have some of our ravens with us. I'll give you one for you to take back with you to your father. Discuss the matter with him. If he's agreeable, and understands that I make no promises save to try, send me a message, and I'll come when I can."


Daveth can't help but have a wry smile at Yoren's suggestion about his sister. You have an interest in one warrior woman, and you get something of a reputation, it seems. "
I'll bear that in mind, but given that my house has precisely one chance for a good marriage, I have to put politics first. And frankly, we need ties to respected, influential houses far more than we need a tie to another house with a strong military but a weak political base."
he shrugs. "
Sorry, I mean no disrespect, I just felt you deserved an honest answer."

[Yoren longshore]

Yoren opens his arms: "
I'm a little more optimistic. A great council avoided war the last time, I hope that it may do the same this time. Neither will back down, but with the right pressure and the right rewards we may just avoid war."


"
I'll message you if he seems agreeable to your suggestion."


"
Sure, you may do what you feel is best... For now, I'll settle for a round of cyvasse, if you are not in a hurry..."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth smiles. "
Do you take your Cyvasse board with you everywhere you go?"
he asks, rhetorically, and nods. "
I have the time, for you."
and they begin play.

/thread, as far as I'm concerned.

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