Re: Game Discussion

[Ereth Redwain]

Yes, there is a big disadvantage for the Houses with fewer players, as we have to spread out to do decent in every aspect or overspecialize to just be great at that one thing, turning that PC into a one trick pony. While Houses with 3+ characters have a easier time to deal with many things and even have seconds that can at least do reasonably well. I'm thinking that might have been a reason the House Kytley is yet to have a player that will stay, and other small Houses get smaller or just lag behind the others do to how easy it is to get Glory when you have 3+ players donating to your House among other things. So I assume most new PC will try to join the "
established"
Houses with more players since it's a safe start.

[Theomore Tullison]

Support from active and engaged players that knows their way around the game is probably a success factor in retaining newcomers, dunno if Barthelds/Dulvers have experienced this in chapter 2, since that's where there influx has been?

But extra advantages is a fair point. I wonder if maybe we should go for this approach:
1. Free-floating XP/DP equal to some sort of floor, I'd either do half of what a PC that has been around from day 1 has gained from chapter+downtime or have the floor be exactly 40XP+1DP behind the PC's who's been around from day 1. Presently, this would amount to 30XP and 1 DP using either method.
2. Flavor XP, I'm not sure what a good value would be, could well be offered more to PC's joining houses with few players as an incentive.

Flavor XP I would stipulate the following rules on:
1. Can only be used to raise an ability from 2 to 3 or buy a rank in a specialty you don't have a rank in.
2. Can not be used to raise deception/persuasion/fighting/cunning/will/awareness/status/endurance/agility/athletics/animal handling
3. Can not be used to buy specialty rank if the corresponding ability is 4+

[Reader]

Thanks guys, good ideas.

I'll use these and work on something that balances rewarding long-term players with encouraging new players.

I like the idea of backfilling events, bonus XP for a full history and maybe even an off-season style roll or two to add some XP and history.

[Reader]

A potential new player over on the Green Ronin forums:

http://roninarmy.com/threads/1961-New-p ... post181473

He's leaning Black so Marste or Coldbrook is looking most likely if anyone wants to pop over there to offer some thoughts (or give me a message to relay).

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

A potential new player over on the Green Ronin forums:

http://roninarmy.com/threads/1961-New-p ... post181473

He's leaning Black so Marste or Coldbrook is looking most likely if anyone wants to pop over there to offer some thoughts (or give me a message to relay).

I'd probably suggest Coldbrook, since Marsten has already had three characters leave, only one with an official indication of not coming back, and it's difficult to handle each vacuum when that happens.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Well, I'm fine with a new member for House Coldbrook, though to be frank, we probably *need* one less than most. While technically, House Coldbrook only has 2 PCs, Ser Jorah is still strongly tied to us, and we have the 2 Drakeson PCs to easily call on/collaborate with, so that's, what, 4.5 PCs effectively?

Depends what sort of character they want to play, also, I'd say. Taking over Garret would potentially create some interesting plotlines within the house. Various efforts are being put forwards to bring my mother out of her melancholy, making her an option which could also create some interesting conflicts between the more traditional Alianna, and the more radical Daveth. But my father's been fairly majorly sidelined, so I'm not sure how much fun could be had from him. If they want to play a new character, we could write them in fairly easily from my wedding tournament, where we'll be attempting to recruit new talent anyway.

I don't have a GR forum account, so pass across whatever of that you feel is useful.

[Ereth Redwain]

House Tullison should be more viable for him, they are Black and only have 1 player, compared to the Coldbrook+Drakeson and Marsten Houses.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Tullison's Black supporter is gone now. I think they're technically Green now.

[Theomore Tullison]

House Tullison is quite firmly Black.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

House Tullison is quite firmly Black.

Even with Theo spying for the Greens?

[Theomore Tullison]

House Tullison remains firmly black despite whatever games Theo may or may not be playing.

[Ereth Redwain]

House Redwain is ALWAYS hiring!

[Baelon Drakeson]

A potential new player over on the Green Ronin forums:

http://roninarmy.com/threads/1961-New-p ... post181473

He's leaning Black so Marste or Coldbrook is looking most likely if anyone wants to pop over there to offer some thoughts (or give me a message to relay).

I created an account, but for some reason I could neither post nor PM... here's what I was going to post if someone wants to post this over there:

Hello, another player of Dragon's Dance here to chime in - I play Lord Baelon Drakeson.

In regard to your worries about competing mechanically - I understand your concerns. The others are correct that RP has a significant role. Corrigon - Ser Jorah Holt - is a good example of that. His mechanics payed a role in his ascension to the Kingsguard - he wouldn't have gotten selected if he couldn't fight - but most of it was his RP choices and the IC support he received from those who supported him.

However, it bears mentioning that we are often not in direct competition with each other - especially in terms of combat. I'm not really sure who I would even classify as the 'strongest' personal combatant is - we have some with exceptional offense, others with exceptional defense, but none who stand out as clearly superior. For instance, as Harlath alluded to in a much earlier post in this thread, Baelon won the Story 1 Grand Melee mostly by not blindly rushing into combat, but by choosing his opponents carefully and letting the stronger foes wear each other out. Part of not knowing who is the 'strongest' is that we do not have regular contests between ourselves. In fact, that Grand Melee I alluded to is the only competition of it's sort we've had - far more often, we are in single or small-group combat, which gives everyone a chance to shine.

The other thing is that, especially with the way the game is structured, sometimes being able to shine is a matter of being the best - or among the best - at something in a subgroup of players, usually your House. Most houses have a strong melee combatant (or two or three - it's a popular character type), but several do not. With Jeryn's background, I think you could be an interesting fit with several...

If you wish to stick with strictly Black houses... well, that would be predominantly Coldbrook/Drakeson or Marsten, but those are also the most melee-heavy houses.

Of questionable political allegiance (at least from an IC perspective) there is House Tullison. Lord Dunstan is very Black aligned, but many see Theo as being a wildcard, and without much check on his influence with Dunstan, that has tinged perception of the house a bit. That would be easily corrected, though. I know you have some (very reasonable) reservations about House Tullison - I'll address those later.

On the other side of the questionable political allegiance spectrum is are Houses Longshore &
Redwain. From his backstory, I think Jeryn would be a better fit on the Redwain side of things - perhaps posted there by Lord Forrest Frey, perhaps to keep an eye on a subordinate that has (if memory serves) been vocally Green on occasion.

House Bartheld is significantly lacking the traditional knightly types, but is staunchly Green.

Of these, it seems like House Tullison really seems like the best fit - Theo is a quite capable jouster, but avoids melee, so you would definitely fill a niche there. I know you are concerned about Theo's schemes, but you don't have to be a mere pawn them;
in fact, I think House Tullison would strongly benefit from an active opponent to his nefariousness. You don't have to be able to defeat him in intrigue or even see through his lies - a phrase that has come up a lot OOC is "
intrigue is not mind control"
. Further, it is worth noting that not knowing someone is lying is not the same as believing what they say. Even if you unable to reveal his plots, if you are willing to stand your ground against him and have a good relationship to Dunstan you could have a significant impact.

There's an IC event going on right now between Theo and Prince Daemon that, in combination with the recent very public accusations against Theo, could serve as reasonable justification for choosing to believe he is untrustworthy, even if you've ever actually caught him in a lie. Reader/Harlath could work with you to figure out a way to make that work if you are interested, I'm sure - the accusations combined with Theo's absence from Mountain's reach (and explicitly being sworn to House Frey) may have weakened Dunstan's previous blind faith in Theo, for instance;
if you are close enough to him he might favor your word over Theo's, even in absence of solid evidence.

Also, if you want a REALLY strong in with Dunstan, you could be betrothed to Yve Tullison. Now that Dunstan has married, Yve has little excuse to refuse marriage, and Jeryn seems exactly the kind of guy that Dunstan would like for his sister... how pleased she would be with it is somewhat up for debate. I'd think there's room for adjusting her personality a little if necessary to make it work, though. Alternatively (or in combination!) perhaps you could be a landed knight - retcon the creation of their banner house (Hite) in favor of you.

[Loreia]

House Tullison remains firmly black despite whatever games Theo may or may not be playing.

Smash cut to a game of hopscotch.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

done Baelon

[Theomore Tullison]

Bethrothal to Yve....I'm going to say that I don't see that as possible as of yet. Because that would be marrying beneath station and throwing away the opportunity to forge an alliance, and both Theo and Yve (presumably) would talk Dunstan out of it. That character having been appointed as the landed knight instead of Ulbert Hite is quite possible though, provided he was around for chapter 1 and proved his black credentials etc.

Further commentary is that while this may not have been entirely clear to outsiders ooc (and certainly not IC), when Theo represents House Tullison or advises Dunstan, he does so according to what's best for Dunstan and Mountain's Reach in his estimation (including staying on the black side), whatever side projects he has he carries out using his own resources and the risks will be on him (For example, Tullisons spent no influence on Theo's trial, that was Bracken, Bartheld and Dulver, and it is Theo that will pay them back...well maybe not Bracken, he's an NPC and thus may be on the wrong end of Theo's schemes). Tullisons can trust Theo, they are among the few who can do that without risk of him intentionally misleading them. A new character in the Tullison ensemble that retroactively is assumed to have been around will be made privy to a thing or two that will likely make any internal conflicts between a "
good"
PC and Theo be more about acceptable means to achieve a goal rather than the goal itself.

Add in delicious loyalty questions such as to what extent you actually can oppose Theo or expose his activities without hurting House Tullison in the process.

[Baelon Drakeson]

done Baelon

Thanks!

Bethrothal to Yve....I'm going to say that I don't see that as possible as of yet. Because that would be marrying beneath station and throwing away the opportunity to forge an alliance, and both Theo and Yve (presumably) would talk Dunstan out of it.

If that's what it takes to make the character work, that's what it takes to make the character work. Perhaps Yve fell in love despite her intentions and normal attitudes. Dunstan would be overjoyed for Yve to have what he himself was denied (marrying for love) and that, I imagine, would trump anything Theo could say. Dunstan is the sort more swayed than by emotion than reason, don't you think?

Further commentary is that while this may not have been entirely clear to outsiders ooc (and certainly not IC), when Theo represents House Tullison or advises Dunstan, he does so according to what's best for Dunstan and Mountain's Reach in his estimation (including staying on the black side), whatever side projects he has he carries out using his own resources and the risks will be on him

Despite your intentions, your "
side projects"
have already affected Mountain's Reach. You cannot control the reactions of others - whether it is justified or not, attitudes toward House Tullison are affected by your actions. I have observed this in action among the players, I can only imagine that it is so among NCs. We are always acting as representatives of our Houses, whether we wish to be or not.

Tullisons can trust Theo, they are among the few who can do that without risk of him intentionally misleading them. A new character in the Tullison ensemble that retroactively is assumed to have been around will be made privy to a thing or two that will likely make any internal conflicts between a "
good"
PC and Theo be more about acceptable means to achieve a goal rather than the goal itself.

Perhaps... but I think it is dangerous to assume that your goals are always acceptable to others. Especially if those others are distrustful of you to begin with. Also, even that shaping of means would fit into my comment about being good for House Tullison.

Add in delicious loyalty questions such as to what extent you actually can oppose Theo or expose his activities without hurting House Tullison in the process.

Sometimes a small hurt is necessary to prevent a larger hurt. People driven more by morality than pragmatics may see the moral harm of Theo's activities as being worse than the political or economic harm of exposing him... not to mention the pragmatics of avoiding the harms done when Theo gets caught (which OOC we know happened in Story 1 and IC know happened in Story 2, with significant consequences both times).

[Theomore Tullison]

Dunstan has actually been hardened somewhat by various events, him resigning over sending Marei and the kid off to Hartshorn, marrying out of duty etc. He's emotional and impulsive, yes. But the character development he was having before going AWOL went along the lines of "
kill the boy"
. Nor do I see how marrying Yve is neccesary to make it work. Sounds like the sort of character Dunstan would be happy to welcome into his service.

At any rate, I intend to work hard to make future Theo to be noble demon Theo as far as any other PC (that would disagree with his goals) are concerned, with various IC and OOC reasons for doing that, so I honestly do not see any new issues arising, because new Theo will be a good and honest team player in chapter 3, that other characters has IC reasons not to want to risk him not being that is perfectly reasonable.

And hopefully I can get in some IC scenes of him actively trying to walk away from the moral event horizon because he has been rather too close to it, and that's not a very nice place to be.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Dunstan has actually been hardened somewhat by various events, him resigning over sending Marei and the kid off to Hartshorn, marrying out of duty etc. He's emotional and impulsive, yes. But the character development he was having before going AWOL went along the lines of "
kill the boy"
. Nor do I see how marrying Yve is neccesary to make it work. Sounds like the sort of character Dunstan would be happy to welcome into his service.

That development may want him to give Yve the happiness he's denied himself even more, though. Anyway, I put it as a conditional intentionally. I'm not saying it would be necessary, but it is an option that is available if necessary. Whether or not it is necessary is up to Reader and the player.

At any rate, I intend to work hard to make future Theo to be noble demon Theo as far as any other PC (that would disagree with his goals) are concerned, with various IC and OOC reasons for doing that, so I honestly do not see any new issues arising, because new Theo will be a good and honest team player in chapter 3, that other characters has IC reasons not to want to risk him not being that is perfectly reasonable.

That is good to hear. I look forward to seeing that happen.

And hopefully I can get in some IC scenes of him actively trying to walk away from the moral event horizon because he has been rather too close to it, and that's not a very nice place to be.

Agreed on both points.

[Ereth Redwain]

We can just have him join House Redwain lol

[Benedict Marsten]

Can we get private Black/Green threads? As we progress numerous houses will, hopefully, be collaborating for their factions benefit. Case in point Markettown. A private thread would be simpler than mass PMs.

[Reader]

Can we get private Black/Green threads? As we progress numerous houses will, hopefully, be collaborating for their factions benefit. Case in point Markettown. A private thread would be simpler than mass PMs.

Good idea, perhaps on an invitation basis or similar? Do players have a preference for how I structure these?

Apologies for slow going (see AFK thread).

[Baelon Drakeson]

Hmm. Green/Black forums seem appealing, especially as the oncoming civil war seems to be always ever more likely than not;
however, there are potential pragmatic quagmires to avoid when implementing.

Some characters may hold opinions different from their house but not wish to advertise that, or may wish to switch at some point, which could be messy - equivalent to switching Houses.

I'm not too fond of the 'by invitation' set up though. It seems like people could be left out for the wrong reasons.

Perhaps membership should entail a certain amount of commitment to the cause - perhaps members G/B points in events are committed to the side of their forum? Those in neither would retain the ability to choose how their points fall, of course.

Alternatively, do it by House with the explicit awareness that there could be spies and turncoats... just like with the IC organizations. I don't really like this option, but it would probably be the least complicated.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I'm thinking that, perhaps, G/B conflict events should be handled on a case by case basis, rather than a permanent board.

[Theomore Tullison]

I'm thinking that, perhaps, G/B conflict events should be handled on a case by case basis, rather than a permanent board.

I think this probably is better.

Most times, I don't think we'll be needing this, Market Town is a big one, but often times, it's just a standalone event and so on and so forth.

On a personal level, it could be fun for me to actually be in an OOC place that has other players in it, but eh.

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