Re: Game Discussion

[Loreia]

I don't see it either. From here it looks like Baelon's rebuking Nathan for stirring up trouble and reminding him that doing so could be particularly more dangerous for him than if someone highborn was creating this sort of tension.

However, another factoid: Baelon did not roll Persuasion to try and break up the two, and he can't roll again for this event. One can take into account that he may have a deferential attitude toward breaking them up and pointing out the troublemaker, in light of this. Maybe even have concern for Nathan, just telling him to be careful.

Just like I won't be able to shield Ser Eoric from Lord Frey's ire, in fact I may earn it as well for my choice of words and my bold rebuke, and it won't get any favor from Eoric. Still kinda worried about how my butting in will resolve, but I just want you guys to know it's completely separate from the argument between Baelon and the Marsten cousins. In roleplay, however, it is related to Baelon's attempt to mend things, as in it kinda flies in the face of it.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

you make one veiled comment and look what starts

and there is an issue between Jorah and Lord Frey and I'm suspecting Jorah is going to need to resolve that

[Nathaniel Mason]

I don't see it either. From here it looks like Baelon's rebuking Nathan for stirring up trouble and reminding him that doing so could be particularly more dangerous for him than if someone highborn was creating this sort of tension.

Certainly came across as a veiled threat to me, and I am not the only one. <shrug> Not the first time Nathan has been threatened by a noble. It certainly didn't come across as 'friendly advice'.

At the very least Baelon is obliquely saying to Ser Eoric... 'You know, you could just have him killed.'

Perhaps I am wrong, but there may be one or two other nobles in the room that might object to that.

No matter. I had a very specific reason for targeting Ser Eoric. I have done my required schtick for that event. I won't be contributing further. If it continues to spiral out of control, it won't be me adding fuel to the fire. (Unless, because of Baelon's prompting, Reader has Eoric 'demand satisfaction', ie, my head. Then I will have to respond I suppose.)

[Theomore Tullison]

Can someone please explain to the guy who did the sensible thing and got into bed early what just happened to cause such a ruckus?

[Nathaniel Mason]

Partly a misunderstanding with Corrine in the Mushroom thread that has since been corrected.  Partly Baelon giving Nathan 'friendly advice' or getting him 'executed' depending on your point of view.

[Theomore Tullison]

hrmm? On first glance, Baelon's IC opinions/actions seems very much in line with earlier IC and so does Corrine's reaction. I dare say that OOC, Baelon has his facts wrong, but even if he is, he can still be stating facts (as he sees them) from his IC point of view and see nothing wrong with it. I suspect that the truth is more like, had Nathan been a knight, nobody would blink if Eoric raised a challenge to duel over the insult. But since Nathan is just some whore...it wouldn't be very knightly of Eoric to do anything except ignore Nathan's words. And killing whores just because you don't like such words they hurl at you is called murder. Likely carrying no more than a fine in a neutral or black court, though, because, whores, whereas whores murdering knights probably cannot expect much mercy, unless they have friends in high places, that is.

Note however that I agree with the opinion that without adding context about tone of words and so on, Baelon comes off as threatening Nathan. Honestly, I have difficulty seeing how Baelon can say those exact words in any way without being seen as threatening Nathan, especially to us, the readers interpreting that post. But you know what? I think it's not out of Baelon's character to come off as brash, mercurial and threatening to the rest of the world without having such an intention. It's not like those words are unfitting to describe his father's behavior (no comment on Daemon's intentions).

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Yeah...sometimes Baelon's way of writing is very light on descriptions of his emotional responses...which means that his words don't necessarily come off the way he wants them to, I think. And then he takes a very sort of distant, professorial tone when he tries to explain himself. The written media doesn't convey the nuance of expression that turns a condescending snub into an earnest discussion of ideas. Having spoken with him a great deal OOC, I feel confident in saying that he never MEANS to come off as discourteous. There's just these cues people use to get nonverbal intent that he doesn't always tuck into his posts.

[Nathaniel Mason]

I wrote what I felt Reader wanted for that particular event and sent an initial draft to him for NPC approval.

To be honest, the ensuing drama that seems to be happening after my posts lately are sucking all the fun out of doing them. With the misunderstanding with Corrine corrected, and assuming Ser Eoric is not going to draw his sword on me, I would just as soon let the matter drop.

[Theomore Tullison]

Also, sidenote:

It's also something that Baelon has lived through - look at the conversation he was just having with Aerion. Like Nathan, Aerion is not nobility, not even a knight, and thus does not have the protections of law that nobles such as Baelon and Corrine have. Baelon was in the same situation, before he was knighted. He knows from first hand experience how dangerous it can be in that situation to piss off nobility. It's why, if I am not mistaken, Aerion isn't just afraid of angering a jealous husband with a pick for QoLaB. A father could take offense at a "mere bastard squire seducing his daughter."

Be aware that an acknowledged bastard, which Aerion is and Baelon (and Athelstan*) wasn't, still counts as highborn, lowest of the highborn to be sure, and if he was just the bastard of some petty knight from nowhere, maybe that wouldn't matter. But when his pedigree includes a Baratheon saying "this is my son" and one of the scariest knights in the seven kingdoms saying "this is my nephew and squire"...you're highborn, and just one of those two facts will make others treat you as such, granting the right to trial by combat and stuff. But you are still a bastard, though, and the other highborn will never let you forget that you are the lowest of us. But I repeat, it's perfectly acceptable for Baelon, IC, to transpose his own experiences upon Aerion without taking that into consideration. It would be a very dull game if all our characters agreed upon how the world works.

*The lack of repercussions over his death can indeed be attributed to this fact. Still disturbed the climate between royal investigators, but let's not discuss that further.

[Theomore Tullison]

I wrote what I felt Reader wanted for that particular event and sent an initial draft to him for NPC approval.

To be honest, the ensuing drama that seems to be happening after my posts lately are sucking all the fun out of doing them.  With the misunderstanding with Corrine corrected, and assuming Ser Eoric is not going to draw his sword on me, I would just as soon let the matter drop.

Well, I like the development, and I think we should build upon it.

However, it should be done sensibly as a team so we stay in the fun zone of rivalry and tension done right. I expect that the disposition of Forrest and Eoric towards various PC's will change as a result of this thread, and because Nathan did such an awesome job (and jab) both IC and OOC, I'd say relations between The Twins and Riverrun just deteriorated, and Eoric and Forrest now should have a growing rivalry, not exactly on the levels of Alayne and Harbyn, but still.

Then us as PC's can choose whether or not to get involved in that bit in the long run, while doing some banter about it now and then we can let it stick or let it slide according to our own preferences (and how other players signal their preferences about involvement or non-involvement).

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Nathan, I was never mad at you OOC. In character Gwyn just saw a friend getting picked on, and didn't keep her composure. That's all I ever intended it to be.

I know you were doing what Reader said, you've made that very clear. But even if you hadn't, I still wouldn't be holding you responsible or anything. It's all just a game after all.

[Baelon Drakeson]

EDIT: Holy crap - it took me almost 2 hours to write this post because I kept editing in responses to new posts. I have to get over my issue with double-posting when it's responding to different posts.

Baelon did not roll Persuasion to try and break up the two

I thought about it, but I didn't want to jumble nen-event mechanics with event mechanics. If doing so is a viable route to keep the peace, I would be more than happy to do so (especially because I get pretty hefty persuasion bonuses on account of disposition). Instead I just physically interposed myself between them to make any resulting altercation - physical or verbal - more awkward for the two of them.

Indeed, the situation has very much spiraled away from the event mechanics, so moving it to a new thread might not be a bad idea; at Reader's discretion.

I just want you guys to know it's completely separate from the argument between Baelon and the Marsten cousins. In roleplay, however, it is related to Baelon's attempt to mend things, as in it kinda flies in the face of it.

No worries - Baelon's a bit agitated that Loreia is inflaming tensions between them when he's trying to calm things... but not enough to say anything about it - he's not that much of a hypocrite. It's not like he's never inopportunely opened his mouth - like twice already in this thread alone, once by event mechanics and once by popular disclaim.

It certainly didn't come across as 'friendly advice'.

That's fine. it was not intended to be friendly - Baelon is not friends with Nathan - in fact, I think this might be the first time that they have ever exchanged words directly - maybe in the treaty negotiations, I don't remember.

At the very least Baelon is obliquely saying to Ser Eoric... 'You know, you could just have him killed.'

That is a fair interpretation of what was said, but not what I intended. I usually like to let he chips lay where they fall regarding IC comments, because our characters are people and sometimes people don't understand things right or say things in ways that make their intents perfectly clear. However, in light of the OOC hubbub it has caused, I would be willing to go back and edit it to say something along the lines of "If Ser Eoric were a lesser man, he could..." which would make it clear that Baelon does not believe that Ser Eoric would do such a thing, and indeed would raise the social cost of doing so. However, I will only make that edit if people involved feel it would be useful to settling the matter OOC. IC... Baelon will take his lumps for his actions, because actions have consequences.

I dare say that OOC, Baelon has his facts wrong, but even if he is, he can still be stating facts (as he sees them) from his IC point of view and see nothing wrong with it. I suspect that the truth is more like, had Nathan been a knight, nobody would blink if Eoric raised a challenge to duel over the insult. But since Nathan is just some whore...it wouldn't be very knightly of Eoric to do anything except ignore Nathan's words.

Those are social protections, not legal. The social mores of Westerosi culture include that it is inappropriate for nobles to indiscriminately kill smallfolk for insults. Neither I nor Baelon said there would not be repercussions for Ser Eoric demanding Nathan's head (or executing him on the spot, for that matter) - just that he would be withing his legal rights to do so.

And killing whores just because you don't like such words they hurl at you is called murder. Likely carrying no more than a fine in a neutral or black court, though, because, whores, whereas whores murdering knights probably cannot expect much mercy, unless they have friends in high places, that is.

None of that would protect Nathan, who would already be dead. Further, the sad fact is that those fines would be to the king for disturbing the peace and maybe to House Bartheld for economic damages. Legally speaking, Nathan would not be the wronged party, the King and Davain would be.

Note however that I agree with the opinion that without adding context about tone of words and so on, Baelon comes off as threatening Nathan. Honestly, I have difficulty seeing how Baelon can say those exact words in any way without being seen as threatening Nathan, especially to us, the readers interpreting that post. But you know what? I think it's not out of Baelon's character to come off as brash, mercurial and threatening to the rest of the world without having such an intention. It's not like those words are unfitting to describe his father's behavior (no comment on Daemon's intentions).

As I've said, I'm fine with the IC interpretations. It's not good for Baelon, but if I only wanted good things to happen to my characters, I would not be playing in this setting. Maybe the My Little Pony RPG instead.

Yeah...sometimes Baelon's way of writing is very light on descriptions of his emotional responses...which means that his words don't necessarily come off the way he wants them to, I think. And then he takes a very sort of distant, professorial tone when he tries to explain himself. The written media doesn't convey the nuance of expression that turns a condescending snub into an earnest discussion of ideas. Having spoken with him a great deal OOC, I feel confident in saying that he never MEANS to come off as discourteous. There's just these cues people use to get nonverbal intent that he doesn't always tuck into his posts.

This is, sadly, true. I try to put non-verbals and internal cues into my better thought out posts (see for instance the one in that thread where he calls Ser Lorent a cannibal), but when things get heated and posts are flying, I often drop them. It is a personal failing that, unfortunately, I do not see changing anytime soon. I can only apologies if it causes OOC ruffled feathers, and suffer for it IC if it causes IC ruffled feathers.

As for the professorial tone I attribute that to aspiring to be a professor, though that ambition slips further away on a near-daily basis these days. It is never intended to be offensive or condescending, but I can understand why it may sound that way. I apologize for that as well. I do not always do a good job of thinking about how my words will be interpreted by others.

Be aware that an acknowledged bastard, which Aerion is and Baelon (and Athelstan*) wasn't, still counts as highborn, lowest of the highborn to be sure, and if he was just the bastard of some petty knight from nowhere, maybe that wouldn't matter. But when his pedigree includes a Baratheon saying "this is my son" and one of the scariest knights in the seven kingdoms saying "this is my nephew and squire"...you're highborn, and just one of those two facts will make others treat you as such, granting the right to trial by combat and stuff. But you are still a bastard, though, and the other highborn will never let you forget that you are the lowest of us. But I repeat, it's perfectly acceptable for Baelon, IC, to transpose his own experiences upon Aerion without taking that into consideration. It would be a very dull game if all our characters agreed upon how the world works.

All good points... though for some reason I was under the impression that Aerion's actual father was at least officially unknown? I think he has made reference to his mother being a Bartheld cousin, though, so your point stands.

*The lack of repercussions over his death can indeed be attributed to this fact. Still disturbed the climate between royal investigators, but let's not discuss that further.

Or it can be attributed to the fact that it was a well-witnessed suicide, and that enough non-partisan Greens (Particularly Ser Jon Roxton) said as much that even a very unfriendly court could not get away with deeming me guilty. But yes, let's not discuss it further.

I wrote what I felt Reader wanted for that particular event and sent an initial draft to him for NPC approval.

To be honest, the ensuing drama that seems to be happening after my posts lately are sucking all the fun out of doing them.  With the misunderstanding with Corrine corrected, and assuming Ser Eoric is not going to draw his sword on me, I would just as soon let the matter drop.

Well, I like the development, and I think we should build upon it.

However, it should be done sensibly as a team so we stay in the fun zone of rivalry and tension done right. I expect that the disposition of Forrest and Eoric towards various PC's will change as a result of this thread, and because Nathan did such an awesome job (and jab) both IC and OOC, I'd say relations between The Twins and Riverrun just deteriorated, and Eoric and Forrest now should have a growing rivalry, not exactly on the levels of Alayne and Harbyn, but still.

Then us as PC's can choose whether or not to get involved in that bit in the long run, while doing some banter about it now and then we can let it stick or let it slide according to our own preferences (and how other players signal their preferences about involvement or non-involvement).

Or, you now, fix it. Not all of us like to see the world burn.
IC, in the short term I'd like to see the NCs immediate response to what everyone has said, get some mechanical resolution (possibly including some mechanical influence from the non-event PC actions). Nathan's involvement can be set aside from the IC for the nonce - it will affect various peoples attitudes toward him but need not have any escalating consequences. In fact, were Ser Eoric to reach for his sword, Baelon would be the first to try to stop him. He's trying to save both his friends reputations, not incite them to socially harm themselves.

Nathan, I was never mad at you OOC. In character Gwyn just saw a friend getting picked on, and didn't keep her composure. That's all I ever intended it to be.

I know you were doing what Reader said, you've made that very clear. But even if you hadn't, I still wouldn't be holding you responsible or anything. It's all just a game after all.

This. Baelon is more than a little angered by Nathan's IC actions, but OOC it's fine. This is Game of Thrones, not Game of Puppies: when things start settling down, it just means it's time for the next IC disaster to strike.

[Theomore Tullison]

We can also fix it, yeah, through IC actions intended to build bridges. Because I can think of a few PC's with both the motivation and ability to smooth it out between Forrest and Eoric.

Others might want to nudge them the other way, and that's when we really do need to talk to each other about it. I can see Theo being roped into inflaming the tensions.

None of that would protect Nathan, who would already be dead. Further, the sad fact is that those fines would be to the king for disturbing the peace and maybe to House Bartheld for economic damages. Legally speaking, Nathan would not be the wronged party, the King and Davain would be.

However, Jon Roxton and Orphan Maker probably should make anyone think twice, and then rethink once again. And I imagine that Forrest would be so pissed that Theo would need a very good IC reason not to start pulling on strings to make a mess of things.

[Aerion Storm]

It's a little off-topic here, but just to clarify a tiny little something that popped up, yes Aerion's father is unknown.  His mother is of a distant Baratheon branch (and also kin to Bartheld), who got pregnant at a Bartheld party.  His father is rumors and wind, maybe a Riverlander, maybe a Valesman, maybe a Targaryen or Baratheon.  His "uncle" Ser Harbert is actually his mother's distant cousin (but uncle/nephew was easier to say, in private, as a sign of grudging affection).

No father has come forward and claimed him, but he's known to be of noble birth from his mother.  So he's not even quite acknowledged the way most bastards are (he's not baseborn, but he's never been formally brought into his father's house).  What status he has (3), he has from traveling the kingdom in the shadow of Ser Harbert, as his squire.  The sticky wicket of his parentage could be part of the reason there's a delay in knighting him;  instead of "make him work as a page and a squire, we might as well get some value out of him," suddenly it's become "holy shit you guys this dude's actually pretty good at this.  But what even happens if we knight him?"  And that could be playing into the reason he hasn't got his spurs yet.  

No one knows who his father is/was, including me...unless Reader's decided on a baby daddy, and decides to spring it on me some day (like after Aerion gets knighted and this reputation for being a great jouster, suddenly someone comes forward all "that's my boy!").

[Baelon Drakeson]

We can also fix it, yeah, through IC actions intended to build bridges. Because I can think of a few PC's with both the motivation and ability to smooth it out between Forrest and Eoric.

Others might want to nudge them the other way, and that's when we really do need to talk to each other about it. I can see Theo being roped into inflaming the tensions.

From what Nathan has said, Reader may very well intend for this to be the case. It certainly has great potential to be an interesting plot element.

However, Jon Roxton and Orphan Maker probably should make anyone think twice, and then rethink once again. And I imagine that Forrest would be so pissed that Theo would need a very good IC reason not to start pulling on strings to make a mess of things.

Oh, aye. There are lots of good reasons not to take action against Nathan. It would be pretty foolish to do so; again, Baelon's words were intended as a warning to exercise caution, not a call to action. Good gods, the last thing he would want is for Ser Eoric to end up in an serious fight with Ser Jon Roxton for any reason, never mind over something as petty as taunting words.

[Reader]

Proper replies to lots of good points over the weekend, but can't resist trolling my player see from my phone:

Triarchy is going to stroll to a famous victory given the stunning show of unity here.

We've only just begun (as the carpenters sang) and the cracks are already showing. Planning my three city victory tour already. Elephants, war galleys, captured westerosi nobles. Something tasteful, you know?

[Baelon Drakeson]

...unless Reader's decided on a baby daddy, and decides to spring it on me some day (like after Aerion gets knighted and this reputation for being a great jouster, suddenly someone comes forward).

I feel the same way about Baelon's mother. He's been told that she was a Myrish noblewoman (or their plutocratic equivalent, anyway), but he doesn't really know. Heck, he doesn't really know that Daemon is is father - sure, he said so in a private meeting, but even Baelon isn't enough of a fanboi to believe that Daemon always tells the truth. On the other hand taking the time to personally train him in swordsmanship rather than assigning someone else to do it (which was all that Baelon had requested) is a pretty good indicator.

Hmm, headed up against the Triarchy, there's an interesting possibility of his running into family on the other side, and maybe even some accidental (or intentional) kinslaying... though in absence of evidence, Baelon is likely to believe any such claims of relation to be lies.

[Benedict Marsten]

Psh, Ben's not *that* old. Actually, I don't know... how old is Ben, actually?

Baelon was born late in 106, a bit more than 9 months after the start of the first Stepstones war. that makes him barely more than 20, still quite a young 'un.

Had a detailed timeline at one point seems to have been lost. Cannot remember where I stored it. A quick glance around and I scratched out a rough one and currently in 127, 23. Half way to the grave in Westorsi standards. 3/4 if you add in he's a nice guy. To most people.

[Theomore Tullison]

It's a little off-topic here, but just to clarify a tiny little something that popped up, yes Aerion's father is unknown.  His mother is of a distant Baratheon branch (and also kin to Bartheld), who got pregnant at a Bartheld party. 

So there's a Baratheon calling him "my son", still counts as highborn.

His father is rumors and wind, maybe a Riverlander, maybe a Valesman, maybe a Targaryen or Baratheon.  His "uncle" Ser Harbert is actually his mother's distant cousin (but uncle/nephew was easier to say, in private, as a sign of grudging affection).

Wasn't Theomore

[Baelon Drakeson]

Wasn't Theomore

That you know of - I doubt moon tea has a 100% success rate, and neither does pulling out... but Theo was probably a bit too young at the time?
If it weren't for the age issue, it could be Baelon... but there's no way he started THAT young. Especially because the Bartheld party in question was probably before he was born.

[Theomore Tullison]

It's unlikely that Theo has any children born in Westeros before 111 (so max 16 years old). There would be women on the stepstones, but not likely the sort of women that would know which of them would be the father.

There's a possibility prior to 106, but he was 13 then, so not much window of opportunity. Still, I am not sure if I have decided if he started squiring before that time, in which case he might have been around a bit.

Conclusion, extremely unlikely that it was Theomore.

[Baelon Drakeson]

FWIW?  Mostly I'm just trying to play it safe and be conservative on my purchases until after some tourneys are over.  I'm having trouble finding exact dates on some stuff, so I'm using "yeah, it takes time to make that" as my excuse for his gear not automatically/magically upgrading every time he wins a joust.    When I've got a clear timeline, I've made purchases (like his new armor in King's Landing, leading into the Stepstones), but I'd rather err on the side of lowballing my character, instead of spending money he doesn't have.

I can mostly answer that for you:
The Drakeson tourney is in the 5th month of 126.
The Coldbrook Tourney is in the 1st month of 127 (the month prior to the Masquerade).

The Bartheld tourney has not been officially nailed down. There seems to be some indication that it is going to be in 126/11 I think, but that's not coming out of Bartheld mouths, so it is uncertain. A date needs to be finalized, as some of us have scheduling conflicts that will determine whether we can be there or not.

[Aerion Storm]

Thanks! Once I'm off my phone and back on my PC, I'll be updating my timeline, then. Drakeson tourney was long enough before the Coldbrook one, and Aerion's won enough already...hmm. Might have an armor upgrade by Coldbrook's, after all.

[Darron Greyjoy]

Kinda jealous at the amount of GD you guys make at these tourneys lol.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

chance for it in the melee

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