[Day 7, Early Afternoon] Swimming against fate

[Loreia]

Loreia and Daveth both sat in a private tent in the Coldbrook pavilion. While Jorah sparred with Benedict, she had been waiting on him quietly. Daveth came around after regular upkeep with duties and intrigue at court and beyond, and Jorah was not far behind. Loreia had explained to Jorah that she had news for Lord Coldbrook she wished to share with him first, of a sort that having Daveth present for would only worsen the boy's standing with his adoptive father. His presence for this meeting with Jorah could have had a few honest reasons, but if she was being truthful with herself, it was because Daveth was the best choice among the immediate members of the house - wise and silver-tongued. She pondered whether that would matter if he was present when she and Jorah brought this enigmatic news to the lord.

As soon as Jorah enters, she stands and salutes, though she greets him with less far less ceremony. "
Thank you for comin', Jorah."

[Ser Jorah Holt]

Ser Jorah raised an eyebrow at the familiarity of the greeting, but let it slide for the moment. The only people present were those he could trust. He took a seat, stretching his muscles after his fight earlier today with Ser Lionel Darry.

"
How can I help you Guardsman Loreia?"

ooc
Ser Jorah was sparring with Jon Cobb this time.

[Loreia]

[Whoops]

"
There's somethin' I wanted to share with you, and I'd like to keep it between us."
With Daveth present, it's clear she means the few she can trust by "
us"
. The palpable hesitation in her speech and her tense posture almost make her look guilty. "
I'm goin' to be tellin' the lord soon, but I need your support when I do."


The last secret she kept, eight years ago when she was brought to Grenward, caused a near panic when it got out a month later.

"
It's about the joust."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth remains quiet, giving Loreia a reassuring nod when she looks over at him. Is this going to be what I already know, or is there a further surprise waiting?

[Loreia]

After further silence or at the urging of Jorah, Loreia continues. "
You remember the mystery knight with the heart tree and anvil?"
She bows her head. "
That was my sigil. I was one of the jousters."


"
I lasted three rounds until I faced Ser Kevan. I know what it means, and I didn't do it as a secret jest,"
she gushes. "
I'd been plannin' this for months. I made that sigil myself, bought the horse with my own gold."

[Ser Jorah Holt]

Jorah rolled his eyes slightly, a little knowing smile on his face.

"
I did wonder if you were one of the two mystery knights. Did you not wonder how your guard schedule opened up around the joust?"
He paused to look at her, like he was reappraising her.

"
You rode well!"

[Loreia]

She blinks. "
You knew?"


She brightens at the praise. "
I-I know you think well of me, but I thought I'd at least have to make a strong case."
Her smile fades in favor of a more earnest look. "
Ser, since you helped in your own way, you must know why I want to bring this knowledge to our lord. And I'm tellin' you 'cause I need someone who'll vouch for me, ser. Do you see what I'm gettin' at?"

[Ser Jorah Holt]

She blinks. "
You knew?"

"
I guessed you might,"
he replied, smiling, "
not exactly the same."

She brightens at the praise. "
I-I know you think well of me, but I thought I'd at least have to make a strong case."
Her smile fades in favor of a more earnest look. "
Ser, since you helped in your own way, you must know why I want to bring this knowledge to our lord. And I'm tellin' you 'cause I need someone who'll vouch for me, ser. Do you see what I'm gettin' at?"

"
I would prefer it if you stated outright to avoid ambiguity or assumptions."

[Loreia]

"
I know, it's just no small matter,"
she sighs. She locks eyes with Jorah, half curious, wondering if he knows what she's dancing around, too. "
I want to be knighted, ser. I've got what it takes to hold that title, and I think you know I do."

[Ser Jorah Holt]

Jorah rubbed his hand over his mouth, contemplating what had just been said.

"
What you ask is no simple thing. Lord Coldbrook may be supportive, but the decision will either be his or mine as we are the ones who can knight you.
We are already the house of oddities as I have heard whispered, but we are also a Northern house and you a follower of the Old Gods. Would you be willing to convert to the faith of the Seven? That is no small thing."

ooc
Had to double check, but Lord Coldbrook is a Ser.

[Loreia]

While visibly relieved by the commander's contemplation and open mind, Loreia raises an eyebrow at the mention of conversion. "
I keep both faiths,"
she answers plainly. "
I've got my reasons for believin' in the Seven, lightin' their candles and prayin', but must I leave the Old Gods behind, completely?"

[Ser Jorah Holt]

"
Have you noticed that I do not pay a special fealty to the Old Gods. You would be swearing an oath of fealty to the Seven, to uphold the tenets of the faith. Worshiping a different faith is not exactly committing yourself to a course of life."

[Loreia]

"
I can keep the tenets. I can sing to the Seven, fight in their name an' all that if I must. I already do."
She crosses her arms. "
If it had to one or the other, who's to stop me if I keep both an' tell no one?"

[Ser Jorah Holt]

"
To many, their oaths mean nothing to them or only pay them lip service. It is a sad state of affairs when it happens. Your answer does not fill me with a great deal of confidence that you understand what you are undertaking."
Jorah's face was stern and he did not look convinced.

"
You have the strength and the skills to be a knight. This is not in doubt, but ....,"
he stopped, deciding that a sermon was not the right thing at the moment, "
Perhaps you might be better to speak to other knights here about how they view their oaths. I am willing to speak further on mine, but I think that should be afterwards."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

While in two minds about interfering, he supposed this was why Loreia had asked him to be present.

"
Ser Jorah. I'm asking this only as 'Daveth', but what is the *purpose* of the oaths? Is it to mandate beliefs, or behaviour? As far as I recall, it simply charges the knight to be brave, just, to defend the young and innocent, and to protect all women. Firstly, I would ask you to consider how Loreia would behave now, without having sworn any such oath. At least to my eyes, I have difficulty seeing how she'd have to behave any different from her current behaviour to adhere to those oaths.

"
And secondly, I would ask you: would it be possible for you to swear an oath saying that you didn't believe in the Seven? I'm not asking if you *would*, but rather if you *could*. I'm unconvinced that an oath either can or should modify beliefs. So long as she does believe in the Seven, which she had admitted that she does, albeit less ... wholeheartedly than others, the oaths are not mere wind, which is presumably the point of mandating belief. I don't think I could trust someone willing to throw away half their beliefs to advance themselves not to throw away the other half to advance themselves further."


You realise, of course, it will probably be better, for both her and you, if she never becomes a knight? She'll never be recognised by many as such, and there will likely be political consequences for having her.

It's Loreia. I'm not going to stand between her and her dream. I'm going to do what I can to help, and then help deal with the consequences. That's what friends do.

You need to start differentiating between 'helpful friends' and 'hindering friends', and recognising when someone is moving from one category to another.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

"
It is not as simple as that. It is a matter of faith;
you should believe in the oaths you are swearing, though even that can be taken too far. Ser Lionel is a case for belief in the Seven that has gone too far."


Jorah tapped the pommel of his sword, reciting the movements and words of the oath.

"
a touch on the right shoulder with the blade. "
In the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave."

The sword moves from right shoulder to left. "
In the name of the Father I charge you to be just."

Right shoulder. "
In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent."

The left. "
In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women...."


He sighed, "
It is a simple oath, but one many find difficult to live up to. It is also one that is sworn upon the Seven in the presence of another Knight or a Septon.
Your answer was that you would still worship both and would hide the fact. There is a reason why there are few knights in the North. They won't abjure their faith for one they do not believe in.

He looked at Daveth
I would not swear an oath to forswear the Seven, even if it was a choice between life and death. An oath is an extension of something you already believe in. If you had sworn an oath to destroy a man with every fibre of your being, that oath should have come from something you believe should happen. Not that I believe you have."
Jorah did not know how close he was to the truth.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth very carefully controls his reaction to Ser Jorah's last words. He knows. And he's letting me know it. I may have underestimated his perception and subtlety. I have to be more careful.

"
Noted, Ser Jorah."


He turns to Loreia. "
I think it might be worth mentioning *why* you want to be a knight, Loreia. As Ser Jorah says, we don't tend to have them in the North, so being one means less here. Your motivations for wanting to be one despite that is important, I feel."

[Loreia]

Loreia listens through thinly veiled exasperation. When all is quiet, she finally answers. "
I want to be anointed 'cause it's the next step. I can fight, and I can claim to fight for the Seven, but that doesn't matter to southerners. I see all of what a knight embodies in you, Jorah, and I want to be that for House Coldbrook. I follow the Seven as proudly as you do, and I'd take my oaths seriously - but I won't forswear my faith in the Old Gods. Damn anyone who says I must."


"
If we can convince a septon to be present, all the better. Maybe we can ask Arlyn while he's here?"

[Ser Jorah Holt]

"
Do you realise exactly what it is that you are asking? Do you know how many women have ever been knighted?"

[Daveth Coldbrook]

I should have discussed this properly with her beforehand. Daveth thinks as he watches. Helped guide her towards the things to say that would have made this process easier.

Help her exploit the situation so as to dishonestly take one of the most sacred oaths in the kingdom? Very good. I approve - by advancing a friend beyond their normal means, they become a more useful friend, and so long as they recognise that, properly managed, their gratitude can last a long time, indeed.

Ummm. No, that's not quite .... errr. Hmmm. I'm suddenly rather glad I didn't consider this earlier.

Suddenly, Daveth's face pales. "
You can't!"
he suddenly blurts out, looking towards Ser Jorah. "
I'm sorry, I only just realised, but if you knight a woman, you'll have to give up being a Kingsguard. Your *only* hope to join them is to be a compromise candidate - from a Black house, with a degree of Green sympathies. If you knight a woman, that's it, you're pure Black, and radical at that, and I don't have the power to push you through the Green opposition that would result."

[Loreia]

"
Daveth!"
Loreia shoots a betrayed scowl at the young man. For a split second, she just barely has the empathy to wonder why the young lord feared for Jorah's failure.

Sticking to the flow of conversation, she redirects focus on Jorah. "
I know perfectly well what it means. I mean, I understand it's beyond the pale. I kept my bein' in the joust a secret 'cause I'm a woman, so I'd not ask for your help if I didn't really want this."


She glances toward Daveth again, softening, before adding, "
If it can't be you, let it be Lord Tomas."


[url=empathy vs Daveth][/url]: 4d6k3 9
The curse of House Coldbrook, why!? You should be on my side this time!

[Ser Jorah Holt]

Suddenly, Daveth's face pales. "
You can't!"
he suddenly blurts out, looking towards Ser Jorah. "
I'm sorry, I only just realised, but if you knight a woman, you'll have to give up being a Kingsguard. Your *only* hope to join them is to be a compromise candidate - from a Black house, with a degree of Green sympathies. If you knight a woman, that's it, you're pure Black, and radical at that, and I don't have the power to push you through the Green opposition that would result."

"
Don't worry Daveth, that had crossed my mind,"
Jorah replied, though the fact that you think my only hope is to be the compromise candidate says you think little of my abilities.

Sticking to the flow of conversation, she redirects focus on Jorah. "
I know perfectly well what it means. I mean, I understand it's beyond the pale. I kept my bein' in the joust a secret 'cause I'm a woman, so I'd not ask for your help if I didn't really want this."


She glances toward Daveth again, softening, before adding, "
If it can't be you, let it be Lord Coldbrook."

"
I understand why you want this, but no woman has ever been knighted;
at least not that anybody will admit to. If you want this and trust me when I say that this will not be easy, then to break with centuries of tradition, you have to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are worthy;
have deeds that spoken about, maybe even in song, be the truest of the true, make it so no man could possibly doubt your worthiness, then it could be done. It will not be something that will be proven over the matter of a week. This is something that might define a generation and not something to be taken lightly."

ooc
The curses messes with all of us equally, even against each other

[Loreia]

"
I understand why you want this, but no woman has ever been knighted;
at least not that anybody will admit to. If you want this and trust me when I say that this will not be easy, then to break with centuries of tradition, you have to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are worthy;
have deeds that spoken about, maybe even in song, be the truest of the true, make it so no man could possibly doubt your worthiness, then it could be done. It will not be something that will be proven over the matter of a week. This is something that might define a generation and not something to be taken lightly."

The 'truest of the true, no room for doubt' part of Jorah's pitch has her rolling her eyes a bit, but she gets the gist of it.

"
In other words, I must commit deeds in number, or ability, twice over."
She is clearly very put out by the notion. "
In that case, I've an idea where I can start. Ser Jorah, I hope I can count on you to keep this between us,"
she salutes.

"
Just so the both of you are aware...I met Ser Kevan after my tilt with him in disguise, and I spoke to him. I don't know if he recognized me;
I didn't take off my helmet, but he knows the Anvil Gloom Knight is a woman. He's the only other who might know."
After a short pause, she adds, "
I believe we can trust him to keep it a secret."


*Let's keep all mentions of the mystery knight in PM, please.*

[Ser Jorah Holt]

"
Were it a normal state of affairs to knight a woman, then I would knight you in a heartbeat, but these are times we must tread delicately."
Jorah looked sympathetic, but stuck in an awkward quandary.

"
In other words, I must commit deeds in number, or ability, twice over."
She is clearly very put out by the notion. "
In that case, I've an idea where I can start. Ser Jorah, I hope I can count on you to keep this between us,"
she salutes.

"
You have my trust and my silence."

[Loreia]

Loreia salutes. "
Thank you, ser. I suppose I'll be holdin' onto my secret for a fair while longer. I'll see you in the melee, then."


*This is where we part. Daveth, this is your chance to confess that you seek to inherit lordship of the house.*

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