Re: [Day 7, Early Afternoon] Swimming against fate

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
Before you go, Loreia, what's your idea for where to start?"


(OOC: Will do, but after dealing with this.)

[Loreia]

"
Crush the zealot remnants. Without Lionel Darry they're scattered, for now. If we start within the next week, we can take advantage of that."


*Feel free to roll Knowledge or Cunning to determine if she's right, because I'm only speculating.*

"
I can help Captain Orrel and Garret front the mission to put a notch on my belt, and we'll bring glory to our house."
She takes a breath before wondering out loud, "
Sometimes I think I should've joined the cavalry instead. Perhaps I'll switch over."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

(OOC: Why not try at least.
[url=Cunning to deduce zealot's status][/url]: 4d6 12)

Daveth nods. "
There's that, and there's the fight against the Clans, that will be another good opportunity."
after saying that, he pauses, unclear as to if he even intends to continue, before eventually continuing. "
But it could be that you won't get enough of the opportunities you need remaining in the Coldbrook garrison."


He looks up at Loreia, so she can understand he's not saying this lightly. "
If you are truly committed to accomplishing this goal, I think it likely that you'll need to go out and forge your own legend. By all means, return to us for each big event, you'll always be welcome, and I'll look forward to hearing what you've been up to, and more opportunities will almost certainly arise alongside us.

"
But you'll never accomplish the recognition you need staying behind castle walls, fighting off the occasional bandit."

[Ser Jorah Holt]

"
Finishing off the Faith Militant needs doing, but first we have to find them. We've picked up a lot of information on them over the past two days. At the moment, it may be that they won't even know if Ser Lionel is dead. "



ooc
[url=Cunning check][/url]: 3d6k3 13

He looks up at Loreia, so she can understand he's not saying this lightly. "
If you are truly committed to accomplishing this goal, I think it likely that you'll need to go out and forge your own legend. By all means, return to us for each big event, you'll always be welcome, and I'll look forward to hearing what you've been up to, and more opportunities will almost certainly arise alongside us.

"
But you'll never accomplish the recognition you need staying behind castle walls, fighting off the occasional bandit."

"
As much as I would hate to lose you, Daveth is right. The guard or the cavalry would give you more opportunities for glory. However, the garrison will be fighting against the clans."

[Loreia]

Daveth nods. "
There's that, and there's the fight against the Clans, that will be another good opportunity."
after saying that, he pauses, unclear as to if he even intends to continue, before eventually continuing. "
But it could be that you won't get enough of the opportunities you need remaining in the Coldbrook garrison."

"
You're sayin' I should go?"

He looks up at Loreia, so she can understand he's not saying this lightly. "
If you are truly committed to accomplishing this goal, I think it likely that you'll need to go out and forge your own legend. By all means, return to us for each big event, you'll always be welcome, and I'll look forward to hearing what you've been up to, and more opportunities will almost certainly arise alongside us.

"
But you'll never accomplish the recognition you need staying behind castle walls, fighting off the occasional bandit."

"
As much as I would hate to lose you, Daveth is right. The guard or the cavalry would give you more opportunities for glory. However, the garrison will be fighting against the clans."

Loreia is disquieted as everything sinks in. "
You're not wrong. I'll help hunt the Faith Militant, and fight the clans. Afterward, I might leave, but I'll need direction - a plan, a mission. I can't just wander and expect opportunities to come unbidden."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth nods at Loreia's comment. "
Yes, absolutely true. Fortunately, a good opportunity presents itself - you're competing in the melee. That will be an ideal opportunity to demonstrate your capabilities to knights from other houses. Speak with those whose eye you catch, let them know you're interested in opportunities to test your blade against more than just the common bandit, in exchange for nothing more than a share of any loot."
he considers for a moment. "
We're notoriously poorly informed. We could deem this an information-gathering exercise. Not so much 'spying', as you're not after secret knowledge, but simple knowledge of the military movements of other houses could be of interest."
he looks over at Ser Jorah. "
What do you think? Reckon we could sell that as an idea to my father to grant Loreia some extended leave?

"
This way, other houses gain a cheap, skilled fighter;
House Coldbrook gains information, favour, and prestige from Loreia's contributions;
and Loreia gains the opportunities to prove her prowess beyond a doubt. It's a win all round. Won't be that simple or easy in reality, but it's a start, at least."

[Loreia]

"
A sellsword,"
she blunts. "
I'd rather my official duty not amount to glorified mercenary work."
With a frail mask of sincerity, she adds, "
Why don't we hear wot yer lord father says first?"


[Roleplaying our discussion of ideas for free-roaming tasks/deeds has been fun, but it feels like filler. Can we jump into the heir dispute?]

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth shrugs. "
It's your path, you have to decide how you walk it. But unless they see a motive they can understand, people would be leery of bringing you on, and it's not like you can tell the truth. Still, you're right. It's a martial matter, rather outside my area of expertise, and my father could well have useful input in the matter. Let's shelve the matter for now."


Daveth's face turns more serious. "
There is another matter I wish to discuss with you, Loreia. I wanted to mention it last night, but I had to discuss it with Garret before I did anything else, which I did this morning."


Daveth's voice is steady and confident. "
This tourney has changed both me and my opinions on various matters. One of them is who should be heir. I now believe that it's best for the house that I be heir. And while your voice may not be significant to the house as a whole, you're a friend, so it's significant to me. I want your support in this."
Daveth watches Loreia's reaction to his revelation.

[Loreia]

Dismayed at the mention of heir, she points a skeptical glance at Jorah. "
You? I thought you didn't want to rule the house. Didn't we talk about this?"
I thought you knew better, am I going to have to repeat everything?

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth simply nods. "
I didn't. Now, I do. I won't be a perfect lord. Actually, I'll be relying pretty heavily on Garret, as well as the commanders, for the military side of things. But I've spoken with a fair number of people this tourney about what it means to be a lord. What's required, and what's merely useful."


He looks at Loreia. "
Here's the crux of the matter: my brother, much as I love him, is not a political person. He loves fighting, drinking, and sex, and otherwise having fun. I've discovered that not only am I political person, I *enjoy* it. Not always - in fact, it's decidedly unpleasant at times. But as a general rule, I can play the game, and play it ... well, reasonably.

"
What this means is that when the need arises, I can and will do what is *necessary* for our house to survive and prosper. To think long-term. Accept the short-term loss for long-term gain. Garret won't. And you know this."
His tone isn't condemnatory of his brother, merely calmly stating fact throughout.

[Loreia]

"
You think that's uncommon? Westerosi nobility is in no short supply of lords who fight, drink and roll in hay."
Loreia goes on a rant, opposing the careful, planned logic that leads Daveth to decisions to which he commits.

"
You think Dunstan's any different? He's got his small council lendin' support, doin' what's necessary. Oh, he might understand and accept the weight of the title he carries, but he was groomed for it, same as Garret'll be. Joren was the lord-in-training, and now it falls to Garret to step up. You sayin' he can't don't mean he can't be taught. It's Garret who should be relyin' on you."
I wonder how Garret took the news.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth takes a breath before responding, keeping the same level tone, not responding to Loreia's emotion with emotion. "
You're absolutely right. We have no shortage of lords like that.

"
They're bad lords.

"
Lord Dunstan? To my reckoning, he's a good man, but a poor lord. If his house prospers, it will be despite him, rather than because of him.

"
Other houses have established allies, reputations, resources. They suffer a slow decline over generations, regenerated by the odd lord who manages to succeed in 'reclaiming our house's prior glory'. We don't have that luxury. Frankly, we have nowhere to fall before we risk destruction. We *cannot* act rashly. You're right that Garret can be taught. But he's twenty years old already - his personality can't simply be 'trained' away. Garret is ... Garret. For all the good and bad that brings. Part of the bad is that he is rash. And part of the good is the wisdom to recognise that in himself."

[Loreia]

Wits and emotion seem to be edging against each other for status as the nature of this conflict, at least as far as it concerned Loreia. Her thumb and index finger pinch the bridge of her nose, briefly, before she delivers a venomous rebuttal. "
The wisdom to see his own flaws is the first step to outgrowin' them, but what matters most is that a lord be able to lead his house and fight 'longside his men, and you don't have what it takes."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
No, Loreia. It's not."
Daveth replies, firmly, but still calmly. "
You make the same mistake my father makes. Fighting is your world, so that's all you see, so that's all you consider important.

"
What matters most is *trust*. The men and women of the house have to trust that the lord will make the right decisions. That if he asks them to risk their lives, that it is for a cause *worth* risking their lives for. And other lords have to trust that the lord will live up to the deals they made, even in the darkest of hours.

"
Most lords engender trust by fighting alongside their men. It is a quick, reliable, and easy way to prove the cause is worthwhile, else he wouldn't risk his own life for it. As you say, I can't do that. But I will have their trust. I will simply have it through other means. Loyalty. Honesty. Integrity. Through these, I will earn their trust."


He meets Loreia's eyes. "
Like I have yours. When you needed someone to buy a horse for you, you didn't turn to Garret. You didn't turn to your colleagues in the garrison. You turned to *me*, Loreia.

"
Because you knew you could trust me, even with something as precious as your dream."

[Loreia]

In any other argument, she would concede on that point. Her trust and her dream used against her feels like the jab of an index finger. "
Don't play that card with me! You are like - we're close friends, that's why I came to you. It's absurd! My loyalty doesn't come from what secrets I can share with yer lord father. Wot we have comes with loyalty, but I don't need to confess my...'untraditional' goal to our lord to prove my fealty!"

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Daveth quirks a smile when Loreia changes what she was about to say. Yeah, you are. But he shakes his head at her last sentence. "
It's not about you 'proving your fealty'. It's about me proving my worth. About being a trustworthy lord.

"
Let me ask you tw-"
he pauses, considering a moment "
three questions.

"
One"
ticking it off on a finger, "
Which of us two understands politics better?

"
Two: Do you honestly believe that I would let my own ambitions interfere with my dream of seeing my family safe and secure, using the most reliable methods available to me?

"
And three:"
he pauses, and gives a searching look "
is your objection *really* just over my inability to lead militarily, or is there something more?"


[url=Attempting to read Loreia][/url]: 3d6 12

[Loreia]

She crosses her arms and rolls her eyes at the first question. He knew the answer before he even asked.

"
Two: Do you honestly believe that I would let my own ambitions interfere with my dream of seeing my family safe and secure, using the most reliable methods available to me?

"
The only ambition I can think of that might be an issue for you is your aim to be Master of Ravens. The position is still open..."

"
And three:"
he pauses, and gives a searching look "
is your objection *really* just over my inability to lead militarily, or is there something more?"

"
Somethin' more? 'Besides Garret bein' the eldest, bein' blood-related to Tomas Coldbrook, bein' the warrior a lord needs to be? 'That's how it's always been done', I know you wouldn't expect those words comin' from me, but Garret has already shown promise! It would be no great task to sing his praises to get support for his legitimization, but you want to solve our heir situation the hard way."

[If Loreia has an ulterior motive, it's not related to her goal or a personal agenda. She speaks only from her deep loyalty and allegiance to House Coldbrook...]

"
Why do you suddenly want this? What changed your mind? And don't say 'the tourney's changed me' or some vague nonsense."


[url=Empathy][/url]: 4d6k3 15
1 damn point away. I don't believe Daveth would lie though.

[Ser Jorah Holt]

"
Does a Lord need to be a warrior?"
Jorah had listened to everything being said, allowing Loreia chance to rant and rave, "
you have a very narrow view of what makes a Lord. I know that neither Lords Dulver and Kytley would be Lords under your view and I am sure there are others."


"
House Coldbrook does need to grow. Strength of arms has gotten the House so far, maybe it is time for another way forward."

[Daveth Coldbrook]

"
Regarding becoming Master of Ravens, that's done. I've made the deals necessary to gain the resources and training I need. There's still work to be done, but that won't be a problem.

"
'The way it's always been done', Loreia? Seriously? Okay, let's destroy that argument utterly."
Daveth finally actually seems pissed off at Loreia. "
Firstly, Garret's a bastard. That may not matter a damn to you or me, but it seriously fucking matters to a lot of the lords out there. 'The way it's always been done' is that bastard's don't inherit. 'The way it's always been done' is that bastards are barely tolerated, be they your own, or someone else's. Even if they are one of the lucky few who are legitimized, in the eyes of many, they will *always* be a bastard. Deceitful, lustful, untrustworthy, treacherous, and base. And the lord represents the house.

"
Secondly, you claim Garret's shown promise? Yes, he can throw his big and little sword around well enough, and a skilled enough leader of soldiers. With some more experience, he'll be an excellent master-at-arms. But what promise has he shown politically, Loreia? What ties has he made? What friendships forged? None! He's only interested in military matters, so let him remain in the domain where he's shown that promise.

"
Thirdly, you claim a lord *must* be a warrior. As well as what Ser Jorah says, I point you straight at Lady Isobel Marsten. Not only not a warrior, but not even a man, and she led her house for many years without faltering. Because she made smart choices, and she surrounded herself with experienced military men who could advise and support her with military matters. Well, guess what?"
he spreads his arms wide. "
House Coldbrook is *full* of men who could ably fill that role.

"
Fourthly, you want to know what changed my mind? Yes, it was this *fucking* tournament that changed me. Do you realise how close we came to destruction with that blow-up with the Tullisons? We have arms, but they have friends, not to mention one of the most two-faced, underhanded, and dishonourable men in the kingdom, more than willing and capable of a few key assassinations. If we didn't make peace, we'd be *dead*, you understand that?"
he leans forwards. "
And Garret *wanted* that feud. He wanted to use it to avenge Joren, despite the fact that it would only multiply our tragedy. *That* is the man you want as lord, Loreia.

"
But even then, it took Ser Jorah to open my eyes."
nodding towards the knight. "
As well as the work I've been doing all through this tourney. For the first time, performing on a grand stage alone, not simply supporting my mother. Facing off against *legends*. It awakened something in me, Loreia. Maybe something new, maybe something that was merely suppressed before. I realised I was more than just some shy, retiring scholar. And I could *become* something greater still.

"
So, *fuck* the traditions that call my brother subhuman. And *fuck* the small, parochial minds that consider that their interests are the only important ones."
a fiery, defiant glare at Loreia. "
I *will* be Lord. Be that with the help of those I call family, or against them. And regardless of if by then they view me as their closest friend or worst enemy, I will protect them! I will not allow this family to suffer another loss like Joren, no matter the personal cost!"


(OOC: So, your roll gets you the basic empathy information, but not the detailed insight that Read person would, so. Well, you genuinely pissed Daveth off. The use of tradition in your arguments, and your military-centric viewpoint, ignoring everything he's done, genuinely hurt him. He thought you understood him better than that. Instead, you're sounding just like his father, making him genuinely wonder just how much you really ever understood him. And yes, he's only saying it out loud because he's so pissed off, but he means what he's saying - he's determined to be lord, regardless of if it breaks their relationship. He'd sooner have you living pissed at him than dead as a sister-surrogate, and as far as you can tell, that's genuinely how he sees the options.)

[size=85:18luv0xo]Edit: Updated to match Loreia's edit.

[Loreia]

[size=85:10ekitho][The insinuation about nonsense was to obligate Daveth to be more specific than when he first told her that he wanted to be the new lord. When I said that Garret had proven himself, I guess what I meant to say was that he's shown promise, as a capable leader and fighter. Those corrections probably won't change Daveth's tone, but I'd like to see them reflected in the contents of his rant, and I will make changes to my post.]

There is barely enough time for the hurt to register on Loreia's face after Jorah gives his two coppers' worth. She is no stranger to the fire within Daveth. It burns as passionately as his mind is bright, and it certainly feels different to be on the wrong side of it. Hearing it enflame his collected demeanor would have had her shaking if he were only a foot taller. She's almost speechless near the end, when a positive light shines through his rant. Part of her is glad he finally snapped at her. He certainly has a lord's temper.

By now, her restlessness and the invisible wall between her and the exit is becoming more apparent to observers. To her discontent, she realizes the altercation isn't going the way she wants. She's just ready for it to be over. "
You have no enemies in the house, Daveth,"
she assuages. "
Everythin' I told you at the weirwood is no less true now, but this is a mistake. We have Garret, an' that's that."

[Ser Jorah Holt]

Jorah raised his eyebrows at Daveth's outburst. This was going worse than expected. Considering her own views, he hadn't expected Loreia to be so conservative in her views on this issue. If this kept up, one of them would end up storming out or come to blows if Loreia really lost her temper.

"
Both of you calm down now."
Jorah ordered, sounding a bit like a cross parent.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

(OOC: edits done)

Daveth visibly wrestles with his temper for a few seconds, getting it barely under control. "
Sorry."
he mutters to the room.

Still, he locks eyes with Loreia again, eyes still bright with rage, though his tone is level. "
But I never thought I'd hear the woman who wants to be the first female knight use 'tradition' as her rationale for driving our house towards destruction, particularly when said 'tradition' says my brother is a worthless waste of space. Frankly, I'm disappointed in you, Loreia. You seek to make a clean break with tradition for your own ambitions, but when it comes to everyone around you, suddenly you're 'none more traditional, damn the costs'.

"
And 'we' don't have Garret. I do. Along with Ser Jorah, Farris, Captain Fenrick, Captain Orell is I believe at least amenable, as well as of course, Lady Alianna. And tomorrow morning, we're going to convince my father. Now, if you genuinely believe that you are smarter than all those people, that you have such a keen understanding of politics that you know better than they do when you say that Garret is the better choice, then you do what you have to."


(OOC: And there we go. If you remain pro-Garret, you now know enough that you can jump in and make your vote known during the debate.)

[Loreia]

She reels a little at the implied hypocrisy, ready to part with "
how dare you"
before Jorah's name is mentioned again. Loreia levels a part accusatory, part betrayed scowl at the man at once both her peer and her superior.

She firmly annunciates what in hindsight is a weak rejoinder. "
I will. Master Daveth, Ser Jorah, if you will excuse me."


[Boy that escalated quickly. Temporary -1 disposition toward Jorah and Daveth.]

[Daveth Coldbrook]

(OOC: Yeah, that's what happens when Daveth loses his temper. Daveth's disposition towards Loreia drops to Friendly, at least temporarily, because of her unrepentant hypocrisy.)

Daveth bites back his final shot, and simply nods. When Loreia's left, he sighs, and turns to Ser Jorah. "
That... could have gone better."
he holds up a hand. "
Before you say it, I know. I shouldn't have lost my cool. And I won't tomorrow, it's just Loreia and Garret who can get under my skin that easily.

"
So. I couldn't even convince my best friend to support me. Still confident I can convince my father?"

[Ser Jorah Holt]

"
You lost your temper with Loreia because you thought she would support you. Instead, she was inflexible. Your father you are expecting to oppose you."

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