The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
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Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Gwyneth Drakeson Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:53 pm
"
That's a lot of faith you're putting in me,"
Gwyneth said after a moment. "
I'll do my best. At the very least, I'd never say you should ignore your emotions, because I know how well that advice tends to work out."
She smiled. "
And I do think I know Ser Theomore, as much as anyone who didn't know him when he was younger can claim to. But...I don't know if there's peace for you in any of that."
"
I don't have any crushing secrets that will destroy Theomore, or insights that might exonerate him. I know that an incident like this, him accidentally killing a far less skilled knight at a tourney, would be a bit of a scandal for him so it's not something he'd have done intentionally. What happened was an accident...a combination of an aging knight's vanity colliding with sheer poor fortune, with you and your family the victims. It was a senseless tragedy of the sort that keeps me away from jousts and melees at tournaments."
She sighed and looked at her glass for a moment. "
I blamed Lady Isobel, you know. For my father. I suppose in my heart I still do. She drove him away, she made trouble for him...she hated him and he couldn't fight back so he left. And then he died."
Gwyn took a deep breath, still studying the dregs intently.
"
That's why I really despise her so much. Oh, she gave me plenty of other reasons, but...I think I could forgive her those things she did to me personally. I could accept that, on some level, it wasn't personal. She was protecting Corrine, even if in a crude and witless way. But I can't forgive her for my father."
Finally she looked back up to Daveth.
"
And I admit, there is something in me that wants to see her suffer the way I suffered. She saw me weak, and I want the same from her. She made him hurt, and me hurt, and she deserves hurt too."
Another deep breath, and she closed her eyes for a moment. "
But she is old, and I am young. Her legacy slips daily farther from her grasp, while I am coming into my own. She will die alone, and despised...even her own daughter can barely tolerate her presence. She loves to invoke the presence and majesty of the mountain...but in the end she will scarcely amount to a molehill. It's not the vengeance my heart wants for her. It's not as personal as actively causing her downfall would be."
"
...but, I think it will suffice."
She finished those dregs off, bitter as they were.
"
I'm not you, Daveth. My solutions may not work for you. And your pain is younger, and sharper than mine. I can't tell you where to find your peace. For me, it is enough to simply be better than her. To be remembered for more, to dare and accomplish more. So lets speak of you then. What price your peace? What does your heart demand of you?"
That's a lot of faith you're putting in me,"
Gwyneth said after a moment. "
I'll do my best. At the very least, I'd never say you should ignore your emotions, because I know how well that advice tends to work out."
She smiled. "
And I do think I know Ser Theomore, as much as anyone who didn't know him when he was younger can claim to. But...I don't know if there's peace for you in any of that."
"
I don't have any crushing secrets that will destroy Theomore, or insights that might exonerate him. I know that an incident like this, him accidentally killing a far less skilled knight at a tourney, would be a bit of a scandal for him so it's not something he'd have done intentionally. What happened was an accident...a combination of an aging knight's vanity colliding with sheer poor fortune, with you and your family the victims. It was a senseless tragedy of the sort that keeps me away from jousts and melees at tournaments."
She sighed and looked at her glass for a moment. "
I blamed Lady Isobel, you know. For my father. I suppose in my heart I still do. She drove him away, she made trouble for him...she hated him and he couldn't fight back so he left. And then he died."
Gwyn took a deep breath, still studying the dregs intently.
"
That's why I really despise her so much. Oh, she gave me plenty of other reasons, but...I think I could forgive her those things she did to me personally. I could accept that, on some level, it wasn't personal. She was protecting Corrine, even if in a crude and witless way. But I can't forgive her for my father."
Finally she looked back up to Daveth.
"
And I admit, there is something in me that wants to see her suffer the way I suffered. She saw me weak, and I want the same from her. She made him hurt, and me hurt, and she deserves hurt too."
Another deep breath, and she closed her eyes for a moment. "
But she is old, and I am young. Her legacy slips daily farther from her grasp, while I am coming into my own. She will die alone, and despised...even her own daughter can barely tolerate her presence. She loves to invoke the presence and majesty of the mountain...but in the end she will scarcely amount to a molehill. It's not the vengeance my heart wants for her. It's not as personal as actively causing her downfall would be."
"
...but, I think it will suffice."
She finished those dregs off, bitter as they were.
"
I'm not you, Daveth. My solutions may not work for you. And your pain is younger, and sharper than mine. I can't tell you where to find your peace. For me, it is enough to simply be better than her. To be remembered for more, to dare and accomplish more. So lets speak of you then. What price your peace? What does your heart demand of you?"
Gwyneth Drakeson- Posts : 2808
Join date : 2015-03-22
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:54 pm
Daveth sighs. "
I think to answer that question properly requires that I provide you with the full context. Which is not a short thing, as it involves events that predate both me and the House. But as our banner house, these are things that you probably should know, so I beg your indulgence.
"
So, my side of the family first. I was born Daveth Oberyn. My birth father was Ser Silas Oberyn, a knight in service to the Tullys. I remember him as a good and kind man. My mother, Lady Alianna Blackwood, ... had a rough childhood. A lot of people around her died as she was growing up, and she gained the reputation for being cursed. She was fairly lucky to marry Ser Silas, and when I survived early childhood, despite being sick most of it, she felt her misfortune was over. Unfortunately, Ser Silas died fighting the Faith Militant, and she had to move back to the Blackwoods.
"
I was only five at the time, so I didn't fully understand all the implications of what I saw and was told, but I listened, watched, and remembered."
Daveth pauses for a moment before continuing, a pained look on his face. "
My mother made ... great sacrifices during that time. A widow has a hard enough time finding a man to wed her. A widow with a reputation for being cursed? Near impossible. A widow with a reputation for being cursed, *and* a child with no claims? It would take a miracle. There is no doubt in my mind that there was talk among the Blackwoods of my having an 'accident' so as to make her slightly more marriageable. That talk didn't progress into action I believe had far more to do with my mother's actions than any prick of morality in their heads. I firmly believe that if they'd managed to find someone to marry my mother, but who considered me a deal-breaker, that day would be my last.
"
Instead, we had our miracle. Lord Tomas Coldbrook.
"
He was a common soldier, who loved a woman named Sonya, who was a cook in the household of House Karstark. Being an honourable man, he decided that he wouldn't marry her until he could provide properly for her. Unfortunately for that plan, she became pregnant, but he'd gone off campaigning before she realised.
"
Garret was three the first time his father saw him. He married Sonya then. Three years later, for heroism in battle against the faith militant, Tomas Coldbrook became Lord Coldbrook. Garret and Sonya joined him at Castle Grenward, but within a few months, Sonya caught fever and died. And so you had a widower lord, born a commoner, with a soldier's manners, a supposedly cursed castle, and a favoured bastard child. Someone who would have great difficulty finding any kind of noble lady to marry him, but he desperately needed the skills such a lady would provide.
"
Really, it was a perfect match. Early the following year, they married. But when we were sent to him, the Blackwoods made abundantly clear that we weren't being sent as people, or even as diplomatic ties. The entire purpose for us being sent was for my mother's curse and the castle's curse to combine and kill as all as quickly as possible, so they could take over the castle. That's it. However, instead, late that year, they had a child. Joren.
"
To recap, we had a military-minded solider, elevated to nobility, his bastard, a noble lady, and her weak, scholarly son. Four people. And nothing to tie them together except their name. And then, Joren. The boy who had blood ties to everyone, and who had the strengths of both sides of the family - smart, friendly, and martially capable. All he lacked was the wisdom that would come with age, and he would be a great lord, and a great man. He was the heart of the family. Garret and I were both older than him, but neither of us begrudged him being heir - he would be the right man to lead us to greatness. I couldn't even begrudge him becoming mother's favourite. He was everyone's favourite. Including mine."
a small smile. "
I loved teaching him things. I think that's where-"
he waves his hand. "
Sorry, distraction. Back on topic."
"
After that, came the Twins. Where I was outsmarted by a f- a *twelve-year-old*. Joren had managed to have a custom coat of arms made, and entered as the mystery knight 'The Knight of Twin Peaks' behind everyone's back."
a thoughtful look. "
You know, when I learned the identity of the Knight of Stones, I couldn't help but wonder if there was some kind of ... I don't know, message from the gods there. Like, a balancing of the scales in some way."
he pauses, closes his eyes briefly, and sighs. "
Sorry. My brain is going all directions to get away from this."
He trails off for a while before continuing. "
I was in the maester's tent, and identified the body, mostly by accident. Everything else of importance, I think you know. My mother's being destroyed by grief, my father by hatred. My brother tries to cope by constantly chasing women, and I try to cope by burying myself in work. So, what would actually cure this?."
he snorts, mirthlessly. "
Good question.
"
My father wants him dead, no question. Garret follows his father's lead. And my mother all but has a breakdown simply on hearing his name. Though, and I hope you'll forgive the cold-bloodedness of this calculation and understand that there are more reasons than I mention here for such a plan, I have a hope that should our family gain a charming new member, who my uncaring of tradition, martially-focused father could like and respect, that would go a long way to tempering his rage, and Garret would, as I said, follow his father's lead. And I further hope that any happy marriage of mine, especially with the prospect of grandchildren, would greatly soothe my mother's heart. And that just leaves one person in the family. One who can see through my every stratagem, and dismiss my every manipulation. And it is that man who needs to drop it entirely before the ideal marriage candidate, already fully aware of this situation, though sworn to secrecy, would consent to him continuing his suit.
"
So we have a wonderful circular dependency that I somehow need to break.
"
I won't deny, there's a part of me that simply wants him dead. But I recognise that would lead to disaster for my house, so that's no solution, and I think my heart can accept that. The ideal would be for him to take the Black. But I am not a fool. I do recognise that unless he takes complete leave of his senses and alienates his supporters, he could be caught red-handed attempting treason and walk away with a smack on the wrist, if that. And again, I believe my heart can accept that. So, what is possible, yet might still work would simply be to expose him. Given the ubiquity of his cheating in his and his nephew's favour at the tourney, it is not such a big thing to ask. And while I know we'd see no justice, it would, I hope, result in the same fate your aunt has in store - to eventually die, alone and, if not despised, at least looked down on, however hypocritical that judgement would be in many cases.
"
If people realise how much of a cheat he is, then history changes from 'Joren Coldbrook dies against a vastly more skilled knight in a tourney mishap' to 'Joren Coldbrook dies facing down notorious cheat and swindler in crooked tourney joust'. After all, I can't change the past. All I can realistically change is the legacy it leaves behind.
"
But even if that were possible, would it be enough? I hope so, but I honestly don't know. The heart wants what the heart wants. And that's something I'm still trying to figure out. Ideally without being exposed and killed in another accident."
I think to answer that question properly requires that I provide you with the full context. Which is not a short thing, as it involves events that predate both me and the House. But as our banner house, these are things that you probably should know, so I beg your indulgence.
"
So, my side of the family first. I was born Daveth Oberyn. My birth father was Ser Silas Oberyn, a knight in service to the Tullys. I remember him as a good and kind man. My mother, Lady Alianna Blackwood, ... had a rough childhood. A lot of people around her died as she was growing up, and she gained the reputation for being cursed. She was fairly lucky to marry Ser Silas, and when I survived early childhood, despite being sick most of it, she felt her misfortune was over. Unfortunately, Ser Silas died fighting the Faith Militant, and she had to move back to the Blackwoods.
"
I was only five at the time, so I didn't fully understand all the implications of what I saw and was told, but I listened, watched, and remembered."
Daveth pauses for a moment before continuing, a pained look on his face. "
My mother made ... great sacrifices during that time. A widow has a hard enough time finding a man to wed her. A widow with a reputation for being cursed? Near impossible. A widow with a reputation for being cursed, *and* a child with no claims? It would take a miracle. There is no doubt in my mind that there was talk among the Blackwoods of my having an 'accident' so as to make her slightly more marriageable. That talk didn't progress into action I believe had far more to do with my mother's actions than any prick of morality in their heads. I firmly believe that if they'd managed to find someone to marry my mother, but who considered me a deal-breaker, that day would be my last.
"
Instead, we had our miracle. Lord Tomas Coldbrook.
"
He was a common soldier, who loved a woman named Sonya, who was a cook in the household of House Karstark. Being an honourable man, he decided that he wouldn't marry her until he could provide properly for her. Unfortunately for that plan, she became pregnant, but he'd gone off campaigning before she realised.
"
Garret was three the first time his father saw him. He married Sonya then. Three years later, for heroism in battle against the faith militant, Tomas Coldbrook became Lord Coldbrook. Garret and Sonya joined him at Castle Grenward, but within a few months, Sonya caught fever and died. And so you had a widower lord, born a commoner, with a soldier's manners, a supposedly cursed castle, and a favoured bastard child. Someone who would have great difficulty finding any kind of noble lady to marry him, but he desperately needed the skills such a lady would provide.
"
Really, it was a perfect match. Early the following year, they married. But when we were sent to him, the Blackwoods made abundantly clear that we weren't being sent as people, or even as diplomatic ties. The entire purpose for us being sent was for my mother's curse and the castle's curse to combine and kill as all as quickly as possible, so they could take over the castle. That's it. However, instead, late that year, they had a child. Joren.
"
To recap, we had a military-minded solider, elevated to nobility, his bastard, a noble lady, and her weak, scholarly son. Four people. And nothing to tie them together except their name. And then, Joren. The boy who had blood ties to everyone, and who had the strengths of both sides of the family - smart, friendly, and martially capable. All he lacked was the wisdom that would come with age, and he would be a great lord, and a great man. He was the heart of the family. Garret and I were both older than him, but neither of us begrudged him being heir - he would be the right man to lead us to greatness. I couldn't even begrudge him becoming mother's favourite. He was everyone's favourite. Including mine."
a small smile. "
I loved teaching him things. I think that's where-"
he waves his hand. "
Sorry, distraction. Back on topic."
"
After that, came the Twins. Where I was outsmarted by a f- a *twelve-year-old*. Joren had managed to have a custom coat of arms made, and entered as the mystery knight 'The Knight of Twin Peaks' behind everyone's back."
a thoughtful look. "
You know, when I learned the identity of the Knight of Stones, I couldn't help but wonder if there was some kind of ... I don't know, message from the gods there. Like, a balancing of the scales in some way."
he pauses, closes his eyes briefly, and sighs. "
Sorry. My brain is going all directions to get away from this."
He trails off for a while before continuing. "
I was in the maester's tent, and identified the body, mostly by accident. Everything else of importance, I think you know. My mother's being destroyed by grief, my father by hatred. My brother tries to cope by constantly chasing women, and I try to cope by burying myself in work. So, what would actually cure this?."
he snorts, mirthlessly. "
Good question.
"
My father wants him dead, no question. Garret follows his father's lead. And my mother all but has a breakdown simply on hearing his name. Though, and I hope you'll forgive the cold-bloodedness of this calculation and understand that there are more reasons than I mention here for such a plan, I have a hope that should our family gain a charming new member, who my uncaring of tradition, martially-focused father could like and respect, that would go a long way to tempering his rage, and Garret would, as I said, follow his father's lead. And I further hope that any happy marriage of mine, especially with the prospect of grandchildren, would greatly soothe my mother's heart. And that just leaves one person in the family. One who can see through my every stratagem, and dismiss my every manipulation. And it is that man who needs to drop it entirely before the ideal marriage candidate, already fully aware of this situation, though sworn to secrecy, would consent to him continuing his suit.
"
So we have a wonderful circular dependency that I somehow need to break.
"
I won't deny, there's a part of me that simply wants him dead. But I recognise that would lead to disaster for my house, so that's no solution, and I think my heart can accept that. The ideal would be for him to take the Black. But I am not a fool. I do recognise that unless he takes complete leave of his senses and alienates his supporters, he could be caught red-handed attempting treason and walk away with a smack on the wrist, if that. And again, I believe my heart can accept that. So, what is possible, yet might still work would simply be to expose him. Given the ubiquity of his cheating in his and his nephew's favour at the tourney, it is not such a big thing to ask. And while I know we'd see no justice, it would, I hope, result in the same fate your aunt has in store - to eventually die, alone and, if not despised, at least looked down on, however hypocritical that judgement would be in many cases.
"
If people realise how much of a cheat he is, then history changes from 'Joren Coldbrook dies against a vastly more skilled knight in a tourney mishap' to 'Joren Coldbrook dies facing down notorious cheat and swindler in crooked tourney joust'. After all, I can't change the past. All I can realistically change is the legacy it leaves behind.
"
But even if that were possible, would it be enough? I hope so, but I honestly don't know. The heart wants what the heart wants. And that's something I'm still trying to figure out. Ideally without being exposed and killed in another accident."
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Gwyneth Drakeson Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:16 pm
Gwyn listens, then nods and sets her wineglass down.
"
Legacy can mean a lot of things. It is a sad thing, but Joren's legacy will likely be entirely contained within House Coldbrook's memories. What is important now is your legacy. Yours will be the hand that writes Coldbrook's name on history. Yours, and your sons and daughters, will be the names people remember. Your choices now, for whatever reason you make them, will echo not only into your future but into the futures of people who don't even exist yet. Keep that in mind."
She sighs a little and looks at her hands. "
Anyway, I think I'm telling you things you already know, so instead I'll try to be of use. Theomore values his House and his hide, in more or less that order...however, I'd be very surprised if he didn't feel his position and title were necessary TO the House for its success. So if you attack him, he'll react as if you were attacking his House. That means his first act would be to rally the House in response. Dunstan respects him and listens to him almost as if he were his father. I've no doubt that Theomore could incite Dunstan to break any agreement, nullify any alliance. I do doubt open war would result, because that would hurt the Tullisons at least as much as the Coldbrooks."
"
But the Tullisons have many influential friends, including the Tullys themselves. It would take some time perhaps, but I think Theomore, acting through Dunstan and with his own personal influence, could close doors and politically isolate House Coldbrook. At that point you'd no longer be a threat to him...as no one would be willing to listen to you...so it would most likely end with that. If you didn't let it end there, then his next logical move would be to mobilize and empower your enemies. Isolated as you'd be...well, it would be difficult times."
"
Your main problem I think is that Theomore would be free to act without restraint, while your goal is very limited. Expose Theomore's crimes. He can gather his House and allies freely, while you can only strike at him personally. Even if you succeed...you lose. Theomore might be discredited, but the friends and familes he raises will not be. To truly 'win' you'd need to do so against all of House Tullison, and its major allies. Which, even if it were possible, I think is far beyond what you want to do. It would hurt vastly more people than any of Theo's schemes, for one."
Gwyn scoots forward and leans closer to Daveth.
"
I want to help. It's in both our interests that you make decisions based on sound reasoning, good planning, and sharp instincts. The feelings you're struggling with will interfere with all of those things. Believe me, I know."
She reaches out to put a hand on his shoulder. "
My advice is to give this some time. Theomore isn't coming after you, or anyone else. You are safe until you act. That means time is on your side. Maybe it's best to wait, and watch, and see if an opening presents itself?"
"
Legacy can mean a lot of things. It is a sad thing, but Joren's legacy will likely be entirely contained within House Coldbrook's memories. What is important now is your legacy. Yours will be the hand that writes Coldbrook's name on history. Yours, and your sons and daughters, will be the names people remember. Your choices now, for whatever reason you make them, will echo not only into your future but into the futures of people who don't even exist yet. Keep that in mind."
She sighs a little and looks at her hands. "
Anyway, I think I'm telling you things you already know, so instead I'll try to be of use. Theomore values his House and his hide, in more or less that order...however, I'd be very surprised if he didn't feel his position and title were necessary TO the House for its success. So if you attack him, he'll react as if you were attacking his House. That means his first act would be to rally the House in response. Dunstan respects him and listens to him almost as if he were his father. I've no doubt that Theomore could incite Dunstan to break any agreement, nullify any alliance. I do doubt open war would result, because that would hurt the Tullisons at least as much as the Coldbrooks."
"
But the Tullisons have many influential friends, including the Tullys themselves. It would take some time perhaps, but I think Theomore, acting through Dunstan and with his own personal influence, could close doors and politically isolate House Coldbrook. At that point you'd no longer be a threat to him...as no one would be willing to listen to you...so it would most likely end with that. If you didn't let it end there, then his next logical move would be to mobilize and empower your enemies. Isolated as you'd be...well, it would be difficult times."
"
Your main problem I think is that Theomore would be free to act without restraint, while your goal is very limited. Expose Theomore's crimes. He can gather his House and allies freely, while you can only strike at him personally. Even if you succeed...you lose. Theomore might be discredited, but the friends and familes he raises will not be. To truly 'win' you'd need to do so against all of House Tullison, and its major allies. Which, even if it were possible, I think is far beyond what you want to do. It would hurt vastly more people than any of Theo's schemes, for one."
Gwyn scoots forward and leans closer to Daveth.
"
I want to help. It's in both our interests that you make decisions based on sound reasoning, good planning, and sharp instincts. The feelings you're struggling with will interfere with all of those things. Believe me, I know."
She reaches out to put a hand on his shoulder. "
My advice is to give this some time. Theomore isn't coming after you, or anyone else. You are safe until you act. That means time is on your side. Maybe it's best to wait, and watch, and see if an opening presents itself?"
Gwyneth Drakeson- Posts : 2808
Join date : 2015-03-22
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:00 am
Daveth considers her words carefully, then slowly nods. "
I hadn't considered it in such stark terms, but you're right. Unless Ser Theomore does something so monumentally stupid as to give House Coldbrook a legitimate opportunity to kill him, I have three options before me, ignoring how difficult they'd be to accomplish.
"
Option one: destroy the Tullisons entirely. This I won't do because of the result. Regardless of the morality, I genuinely like Lord Dunstan. He's a bit prickly, but he's a genuinely good man, and in this world, that counts for a lot in my eyes.
"
Option two: kill Ser Theomore in secret. This I won't do because of the means. Even if I somehow pull it off without any traces leading back to me, what point is there in removing one monster from the world, only to create another to fill the gap?
"
Option three: do nothing. Continue to try my best to arrest my family's mental descent, and just pray to the gods that we somehow find a way to move on that doesn't involve seeing any justice done."
He sighs and sits in silence for a moment, before speaking, voice thick with bitter defeat. "
He's too strong. There is absolutely no point in going after Ser Theomore with anything less than pure murder on my mind."
he looks down at his hands. "
And, without my family being under threat, and with being convinced Joren's death wasn't deliberate, I simply don't have the conviction required for that."
He rests his face in his hands. "
It's over. He's won.
"
Gods forgive me. He's won."
I hadn't considered it in such stark terms, but you're right. Unless Ser Theomore does something so monumentally stupid as to give House Coldbrook a legitimate opportunity to kill him, I have three options before me, ignoring how difficult they'd be to accomplish.
"
Option one: destroy the Tullisons entirely. This I won't do because of the result. Regardless of the morality, I genuinely like Lord Dunstan. He's a bit prickly, but he's a genuinely good man, and in this world, that counts for a lot in my eyes.
"
Option two: kill Ser Theomore in secret. This I won't do because of the means. Even if I somehow pull it off without any traces leading back to me, what point is there in removing one monster from the world, only to create another to fill the gap?
"
Option three: do nothing. Continue to try my best to arrest my family's mental descent, and just pray to the gods that we somehow find a way to move on that doesn't involve seeing any justice done."
He sighs and sits in silence for a moment, before speaking, voice thick with bitter defeat. "
He's too strong. There is absolutely no point in going after Ser Theomore with anything less than pure murder on my mind."
he looks down at his hands. "
And, without my family being under threat, and with being convinced Joren's death wasn't deliberate, I simply don't have the conviction required for that."
He rests his face in his hands. "
It's over. He's won.
"
Gods forgive me. He's won."
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Gwyneth Drakeson Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:11 am
"
Only if it was ever a battle to begin with,"
Gwyn says gently. "
Is this really about Theomore Tullison? He had no malice in his heart when this tragedy happened. Why not find and kill the tourney master who matched him with Joren? The pages who prepared their armor and weapons? So many hands, which pair to blame? Any would be easier than none though. It can't mean nothing, can it? It can't just be an accident, because we can't strike back against bad fortune. We can't control it. We can't affect it."
She settles back in her chair. "
Senseless things are the worst, I think. The hardest to let go of. When a man kills someone in cold blood, things are simple. We know what to do. But when a man just...vanishes... Or a beloved brother dies for no reason other than youthful overexuberance colliding with vanity and pride, with a dose of sheer bad luck..."
Gwyn looks away. "
We look for meaning. We...try to force it to make sense. Keep digging and digging at the wound, long after it might have healed."
"
Theomore didn't win, because he wasn't fighting you. He didn't even know who you were at first. The battle isn't between you and him."
Only if it was ever a battle to begin with,"
Gwyn says gently. "
Is this really about Theomore Tullison? He had no malice in his heart when this tragedy happened. Why not find and kill the tourney master who matched him with Joren? The pages who prepared their armor and weapons? So many hands, which pair to blame? Any would be easier than none though. It can't mean nothing, can it? It can't just be an accident, because we can't strike back against bad fortune. We can't control it. We can't affect it."
She settles back in her chair. "
Senseless things are the worst, I think. The hardest to let go of. When a man kills someone in cold blood, things are simple. We know what to do. But when a man just...vanishes... Or a beloved brother dies for no reason other than youthful overexuberance colliding with vanity and pride, with a dose of sheer bad luck..."
Gwyn looks away. "
We look for meaning. We...try to force it to make sense. Keep digging and digging at the wound, long after it might have healed."
"
Theomore didn't win, because he wasn't fighting you. He didn't even know who you were at first. The battle isn't between you and him."
Gwyneth Drakeson- Posts : 2808
Join date : 2015-03-22
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:04 pm
Daveth doesn't raise his head from his hands, and his voice croaks with mental pain. "
If you can't blame any of the direct actors, then you simply shift the blame onto those who made the circumstances what they were. In which case, you simply have to answer the following questions.
"
Who was it who read Joren stories of famous knights accomplishing great deeds even from a young age, while he was young and impressionable?
"
Who was it who should have taught Joren how to make sensible decisions, but clearly didn't?
"
And who was it who should have been watching out for Joren that day, but was too excited at the prospect of spending time speaking with maesters to do his *fucking* duty properly, the one time it actually mattered?"
finally letting the profanity escape his lips.
After a moment's quiet, he continues. "
Some days, the only way I could gather the energy to get up and face another day was by focusing on my hate for Ser Theomore. I could only face the day by believing that it brought me one day closer to his comeuppance.
"
But the answers to those three questions? the person who set the whole situation up, who did everything *except* land the fatal blow? It's me. It's all me.
"
That's the 'meaning' of the whole thing. The sense to be found. Because none of those things were luck. Those were *choices*. Choices I made. That Joren paid the price for."
If you can't blame any of the direct actors, then you simply shift the blame onto those who made the circumstances what they were. In which case, you simply have to answer the following questions.
"
Who was it who read Joren stories of famous knights accomplishing great deeds even from a young age, while he was young and impressionable?
"
Who was it who should have taught Joren how to make sensible decisions, but clearly didn't?
"
And who was it who should have been watching out for Joren that day, but was too excited at the prospect of spending time speaking with maesters to do his *fucking* duty properly, the one time it actually mattered?"
finally letting the profanity escape his lips.
After a moment's quiet, he continues. "
Some days, the only way I could gather the energy to get up and face another day was by focusing on my hate for Ser Theomore. I could only face the day by believing that it brought me one day closer to his comeuppance.
"
But the answers to those three questions? the person who set the whole situation up, who did everything *except* land the fatal blow? It's me. It's all me.
"
That's the 'meaning' of the whole thing. The sense to be found. Because none of those things were luck. Those were *choices*. Choices I made. That Joren paid the price for."
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Gwyneth Drakeson Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:30 pm
"
The battle is between you, and your guilt,"
agrees Gwyneth. "
These are the questions that haunt your father, and your mother too. What might they have done differently? Could your father have taught him better? To be a good enough warrior to best Ser Theomore? Or at least to avoid his fate?"
"
Could your mother have taught him caution, and sense?"
"
Did they fail too?"
She shakes her head. "
And what of Joren? What blame should he have? No one told him to do what he did. What blame should the people who let him sign up share? So many voices. So many hands."
"
If someone must be blamed, then I think that blame must be shared. Anything else isn't fair. But maybe it's easier simply not to. No one in this terrible story wanted the result. You all wanted him to be safe and happy and he, with the cunning and fearlessness boys possess, eluded you at a crucial moment. It only took a moment. Who could ever have believed he would do that? Or that, if he did, this would be the result?"
Gwyn sits back and looks at the ceiling. "
You might think this is where my empathy ends. I was seven when my father left, never to return. How could I feel responsible? But I always did wonder...if I'd begged him to stay, might he have? If I'd prevailed on mother...if I'd found out why he wanted to go and managed to change things. If this, if that... I suppose in hindsight I felt like everything that happens in my life is somehow about me. The good because of my strengths, the bad because of my failures."
"
But it's not. Sometimes things happen, and all I can do is react. Sometimes the moments come, and there's nothing I can do to stop them. All I can do is live with the consequences as best I can."
The battle is between you, and your guilt,"
agrees Gwyneth. "
These are the questions that haunt your father, and your mother too. What might they have done differently? Could your father have taught him better? To be a good enough warrior to best Ser Theomore? Or at least to avoid his fate?"
"
Could your mother have taught him caution, and sense?"
"
Did they fail too?"
She shakes her head. "
And what of Joren? What blame should he have? No one told him to do what he did. What blame should the people who let him sign up share? So many voices. So many hands."
"
If someone must be blamed, then I think that blame must be shared. Anything else isn't fair. But maybe it's easier simply not to. No one in this terrible story wanted the result. You all wanted him to be safe and happy and he, with the cunning and fearlessness boys possess, eluded you at a crucial moment. It only took a moment. Who could ever have believed he would do that? Or that, if he did, this would be the result?"
Gwyn sits back and looks at the ceiling. "
You might think this is where my empathy ends. I was seven when my father left, never to return. How could I feel responsible? But I always did wonder...if I'd begged him to stay, might he have? If I'd prevailed on mother...if I'd found out why he wanted to go and managed to change things. If this, if that... I suppose in hindsight I felt like everything that happens in my life is somehow about me. The good because of my strengths, the bad because of my failures."
"
But it's not. Sometimes things happen, and all I can do is react. Sometimes the moments come, and there's nothing I can do to stop them. All I can do is live with the consequences as best I can."
Gwyneth Drakeson- Posts : 2808
Join date : 2015-03-22
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:11 pm
Daveth finally lifts his head from his hands. His face is tired and worn. "
I wish I could believe that so easily. That I could just ... let it go."
he shivers slightly, as if from a cold draft.
"
But I can't.
"
Still, I thank you for your words. And for listening. I have to hope this helped. Maybe one day, I'll be able to look back on what you've said, and say 'you know what, I think I can finally agree with what Lady Gwyneth said that day'."
He sits up. "
But for now, if you'll forgive me, I feel incredibly drained. A rest before dinner is probably wise if I'm to be presentable."
I wish I could believe that so easily. That I could just ... let it go."
he shivers slightly, as if from a cold draft.
"
But I can't.
"
Still, I thank you for your words. And for listening. I have to hope this helped. Maybe one day, I'll be able to look back on what you've said, and say 'you know what, I think I can finally agree with what Lady Gwyneth said that day'."
He sits up. "
But for now, if you'll forgive me, I feel incredibly drained. A rest before dinner is probably wise if I'm to be presentable."
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Baelon Drakeson Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:38 pm
[OOC: Just an FYI, I would like a character-development scene with Daveth - preferably one on one - sometime before he leaves Caladan Hall. It needn't be long, and it probably shouldn't be the same day as this conversation... give Daveth a chance to recover a bit first. Not sure if we want to put it in this thread after you two are done or in a new thread, up to you.]
Baelon Drakeson- Posts : 4306
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Westeros
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:53 pm
(OOC: Well, I think all that's left is some parting words from Lady Gwyneth, then we're done. If so, I think it makes the most sense to carry on this thread (unless she wishes to discuss this conversation with you after this, in which case, that has priority) - I have quite enough threads going on in this forum already, besides. 
If she decides to drag me back in, feel free to start a new thread.
Either way, I'll let you instigate.)
If she decides to drag me back in, feel free to start a new thread.
Either way, I'll let you instigate.)
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Gwyneth Drakeson Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:46 pm
"
Of course,"
Gwyneth agrees, and stands up. "
As for the rest...it's taken me years. And I still have moments where I wonder if I'm just...revising things in my mind to make it more liveable. It never really goes away. But I think in time, and with help, it can become bearable."
She opens the door.
"
Until supper then."
(I believe Daveth's been shown where his room is, so she'll let him go. Baelon, feel free to have your scene with Daveth here.)
Of course,"
Gwyneth agrees, and stands up. "
As for the rest...it's taken me years. And I still have moments where I wonder if I'm just...revising things in my mind to make it more liveable. It never really goes away. But I think in time, and with help, it can become bearable."
She opens the door.
"
Until supper then."
(I believe Daveth's been shown where his room is, so she'll let him go. Baelon, feel free to have your scene with Daveth here.)
Gwyneth Drakeson- Posts : 2808
Join date : 2015-03-22
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:58 pm
"
Thank you, Lady Gwyneth."
Daveth starts to leave, but pauses in the doorway and turns back and repeats, more solemnly. "
Sincerely, thank you."
And leaves.
(OOC: Ready for you whenever, Ser Baelon)
Thank you, Lady Gwyneth."
Daveth starts to leave, but pauses in the doorway and turns back and repeats, more solemnly. "
Sincerely, thank you."
And leaves.
(OOC: Ready for you whenever, Ser Baelon)
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Baelon Drakeson Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:52 am
[OOC: Sorry, this slipped off my radar - in the midst of midterm season, which is now extra stressful as I have to write, give, and grade midterms as well as take them myself]
A couple days later, Baelon and Daveth are out for a quiet ride through the grasslands, ostensibly Baelon pointing out where they were planning on building a road to connect the port to the Kingsroad, how they might split the land into plots to encourage farmers to settle in and work the land, and so forth. In reality, there wasn't much to differentiate one stretch of grassland from another yet, so really is was more just of a peaceful morning ride. On their return trip, however, Baelon brings up a perhaps delicate topic.
"
Daveth, we've spent the last few days talking about the growth and development of House Drakeson, but I think we need to talk about the future of House Coldbrook, as well. In particular, well... you. More specifically, you are a young heir of noble house, and a small family, at that. Your family has to grow, Daveth, and I doubt that's going to happen in the form of new siblings. That means it is on you to make sure that there is a new generation of Coldbrooks. The sooner the better."
A couple days later, Baelon and Daveth are out for a quiet ride through the grasslands, ostensibly Baelon pointing out where they were planning on building a road to connect the port to the Kingsroad, how they might split the land into plots to encourage farmers to settle in and work the land, and so forth. In reality, there wasn't much to differentiate one stretch of grassland from another yet, so really is was more just of a peaceful morning ride. On their return trip, however, Baelon brings up a perhaps delicate topic.
"
Daveth, we've spent the last few days talking about the growth and development of House Drakeson, but I think we need to talk about the future of House Coldbrook, as well. In particular, well... you. More specifically, you are a young heir of noble house, and a small family, at that. Your family has to grow, Daveth, and I doubt that's going to happen in the form of new siblings. That means it is on you to make sure that there is a new generation of Coldbrooks. The sooner the better."
Baelon Drakeson- Posts : 4306
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Westeros
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:00 pm
(OOC: No worries, life happens.)
Daveth slowly nods at Lord Baelon's words. He'd suspected that Lord Baelon wanted to discuss something during their ride, though he hadn't been sure what, and the action gave him time to consider his words.
"
I agree. The matter has been on my thoughts even so far back as the tournament. Though I note that the lack of additional siblings is probably a good thing. Such a thing now would re-open a discussion only recently closed, and cause no small amount of trouble.
"
My current intentions in this regard are actually towards your good-sister, Lady Dyana. There are enough political reasons to support this that I don't feel too guilty indulging my personal ones at the same time, given that it will give me strong personal ties to two houses of great import to House Coldbrook's future. I have arranged to meet with her again in a few months' time, as I pass through Marsten lands, so we can both see where we stand once we have had time to carefully consider the matter. If we decide the matter is still worth pursuing, and should she decide to join her sister here after the campaign against the clans concludes, then I believe things could be settled reasonably promptly afterwards."
He shrugs. "
And yes, I am aware that if she decides that she is not interested, I will have to move on reasonably swiftly to another politically-useful match, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter."
Daveth slowly nods at Lord Baelon's words. He'd suspected that Lord Baelon wanted to discuss something during their ride, though he hadn't been sure what, and the action gave him time to consider his words.
"
I agree. The matter has been on my thoughts even so far back as the tournament. Though I note that the lack of additional siblings is probably a good thing. Such a thing now would re-open a discussion only recently closed, and cause no small amount of trouble.
"
My current intentions in this regard are actually towards your good-sister, Lady Dyana. There are enough political reasons to support this that I don't feel too guilty indulging my personal ones at the same time, given that it will give me strong personal ties to two houses of great import to House Coldbrook's future. I have arranged to meet with her again in a few months' time, as I pass through Marsten lands, so we can both see where we stand once we have had time to carefully consider the matter. If we decide the matter is still worth pursuing, and should she decide to join her sister here after the campaign against the clans concludes, then I believe things could be settled reasonably promptly afterwards."
He shrugs. "
And yes, I am aware that if she decides that she is not interested, I will have to move on reasonably swiftly to another politically-useful match, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter."
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Baelon Drakeson Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:16 pm
Baelon nods.
"
I was already aware of your previous interest in Dyana. That's actually why I brought the matter up - to see if you were still pursuing her."
He pauses, gathering his thoughts.
Just as silence starts to get awkward and uncomfortable, Baelon continues.
"
Marrying Dyana would be a mistake."
"
I was already aware of your previous interest in Dyana. That's actually why I brought the matter up - to see if you were still pursuing her."
He pauses, gathering his thoughts.
Just as silence starts to get awkward and uncomfortable, Baelon continues.
"
Marrying Dyana would be a mistake."
Baelon Drakeson- Posts : 4306
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Westeros
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:22 pm
Daveth looks over, seemingly unsurprised. "
Because you feel that my having you both as a banner house already grants a strong enough tie to House Marsten?"
Because you feel that my having you both as a banner house already grants a strong enough tie to House Marsten?"
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Baelon Drakeson Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:47 pm
Baelon nods again.
"
That is part of it. House Drakeson is intimately connected to House Marsten on several levels, and we are beholden to House Coldbrook. It would be better to seek a marriage that will create a new bond of friendship, not strengthen one that is already quite strong."
Baelon sighs.
"
Please don't misunderstand me - I have nothing bad to say about Dyana herself. She would be an asset to House Coldbrook, and as your friend I wish you the joy and happiness that comes of marrying for love. However, I do not believe she is the optimal choice for House Coldbrook. Dyana is unconventional. I have no issue with that, but others do, and House Coldbrook needs to garner more respect from other houses. People respect tradition. Look at the reaction Dyana got when it was revealed she had been the Knight of Stones. It is unfair and unjust, but it is the reality of the world."
He pauses to let his words sink in.
"
I have a thought, a candidate that might at first seem unlikely, but I think you should consider. Yve Tullison."
OOC: I swear I was thinking about Yve as a match for Daveth before we had an Yve player.
"
That is part of it. House Drakeson is intimately connected to House Marsten on several levels, and we are beholden to House Coldbrook. It would be better to seek a marriage that will create a new bond of friendship, not strengthen one that is already quite strong."
Baelon sighs.
"
Please don't misunderstand me - I have nothing bad to say about Dyana herself. She would be an asset to House Coldbrook, and as your friend I wish you the joy and happiness that comes of marrying for love. However, I do not believe she is the optimal choice for House Coldbrook. Dyana is unconventional. I have no issue with that, but others do, and House Coldbrook needs to garner more respect from other houses. People respect tradition. Look at the reaction Dyana got when it was revealed she had been the Knight of Stones. It is unfair and unjust, but it is the reality of the world."
He pauses to let his words sink in.
"
I have a thought, a candidate that might at first seem unlikely, but I think you should consider. Yve Tullison."
OOC: I swear I was thinking about Yve as a match for Daveth before we had an Yve player.
Baelon Drakeson- Posts : 4306
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Westeros
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:41 am
Daveth carries on for a few steps, carefully considering before carefully responding. "
There's a lot to unpack there. Let's start at the end. Lady Yve. We've not met, but from what I've heard, she is beautiful, charming, and intelligent, and will be a great asset who whoever wins her hand."
a pause. "
Which is why she has a line of suitors longer than the Kingsroad knocking at her door. Including, to my knowledge, a man known for his social abilities who threw away a lordship for the mere *opportunity* to court her."
he mirthlessly chuckles. "
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the compliment that you think I have a chance there, but I rather disagree. What I have to offer is that I'm smart, and the heir to a house younger than I am. Not nearly enough.
"
In addition, there's the matter of her uncle. I want you to understand something: the Faith Militant killed my biological father. They are currently causing trouble in our lands, and if they have the chance, they will without a doubt kill me. Yet, I don't hate them. Well, I want them all dead, but it's not personal. Ser Theomore, I *hate*. And I always will. The thought of being good-kin with him fills me with a revulsion I cannot ably describe, and I think you understand my facility with language well enough to see the severity of those words. Learning that her son was that man's good-nephew would probably land the finishing blow to my mother's health as well.
"
So, that's Lady Yve. Now, for Lady Dyana. To my mind, the key things House Coldbrooks lacks are history, prestige, and influence. Things House Marsten has plenty of.
"
You claim we have a good tie with House Marsten, but do you know how close we came to being in a feud with them? My -"
he bites off a word "
brother ... inappropriately looked at Lady Corrine during a meeting we had at the tourney. She mentioned this in passing to her husband, and that night, the night of chaos, he sought my brother out and punched him right in the face. Unfortunately, he did so right in our camp, and our men are defensive of our remaining sons. If Lady Ellie hadn't stepped forwards and stabbed one of them, he would quite likely have killed Lord Benedict. I don't claim prophecy when I say that see that we'd have a very dark future down a path where Lady Ellie was not present. In this one, fortunately, he was unharmed, and my man has recovered, bar an occasional twinge.
"
You could claim that that was an exceptional night. But I feel it more accurate to describe it as a harbinger of the days to come, should matters not somehow improve or resolve themselves, when oaths are broken and the fragile chains that bind society together are rent asunder. When those days come, I would sooner have two houses I know I can rely on and trust absolutely than ten whose words of friendship will wilt like corn under the Dornish sun.
"
Further, I have to not just consider my future, but my children's future, as well. What we have binding us is friendship, which I trust. But with unknown players in a future game, I trust in friendship backed by blood more.
"
Now, is Lady Dyana ... atypical? Yes. Is she politically less valuable for it? Yes. If I can be permitted to be cold-blooded, were she not, I would not think I would have a chance. House Marsten are old, proud, worshippers of the Seven. House Coldbrook is ... not. But that has the advantage that expectations are low - we have a lowborn Lord, a bastard son, and an heir who utterly fails at every measure of masculinity our society has."
his tone isn't self-loathing, simply stating facts. "
Frankly, a woman who fills that role instead would do no damage to us, and would fit in easily. And come the next generation, all that will be remembered is that they have Marsten blood. I doubt even Lady Yve could drag this generation's reputation far out of the gutter."
Daveth shrugs. "
That sounds more self-pitying than it is. Honestly, it's a fair assessment of our true situation. I can't afford to carry any illusions about that."
There's a lot to unpack there. Let's start at the end. Lady Yve. We've not met, but from what I've heard, she is beautiful, charming, and intelligent, and will be a great asset who whoever wins her hand."
a pause. "
Which is why she has a line of suitors longer than the Kingsroad knocking at her door. Including, to my knowledge, a man known for his social abilities who threw away a lordship for the mere *opportunity* to court her."
he mirthlessly chuckles. "
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the compliment that you think I have a chance there, but I rather disagree. What I have to offer is that I'm smart, and the heir to a house younger than I am. Not nearly enough.
"
In addition, there's the matter of her uncle. I want you to understand something: the Faith Militant killed my biological father. They are currently causing trouble in our lands, and if they have the chance, they will without a doubt kill me. Yet, I don't hate them. Well, I want them all dead, but it's not personal. Ser Theomore, I *hate*. And I always will. The thought of being good-kin with him fills me with a revulsion I cannot ably describe, and I think you understand my facility with language well enough to see the severity of those words. Learning that her son was that man's good-nephew would probably land the finishing blow to my mother's health as well.
"
So, that's Lady Yve. Now, for Lady Dyana. To my mind, the key things House Coldbrooks lacks are history, prestige, and influence. Things House Marsten has plenty of.
"
You claim we have a good tie with House Marsten, but do you know how close we came to being in a feud with them? My -"
he bites off a word "
brother ... inappropriately looked at Lady Corrine during a meeting we had at the tourney. She mentioned this in passing to her husband, and that night, the night of chaos, he sought my brother out and punched him right in the face. Unfortunately, he did so right in our camp, and our men are defensive of our remaining sons. If Lady Ellie hadn't stepped forwards and stabbed one of them, he would quite likely have killed Lord Benedict. I don't claim prophecy when I say that see that we'd have a very dark future down a path where Lady Ellie was not present. In this one, fortunately, he was unharmed, and my man has recovered, bar an occasional twinge.
"
You could claim that that was an exceptional night. But I feel it more accurate to describe it as a harbinger of the days to come, should matters not somehow improve or resolve themselves, when oaths are broken and the fragile chains that bind society together are rent asunder. When those days come, I would sooner have two houses I know I can rely on and trust absolutely than ten whose words of friendship will wilt like corn under the Dornish sun.
"
Further, I have to not just consider my future, but my children's future, as well. What we have binding us is friendship, which I trust. But with unknown players in a future game, I trust in friendship backed by blood more.
"
Now, is Lady Dyana ... atypical? Yes. Is she politically less valuable for it? Yes. If I can be permitted to be cold-blooded, were she not, I would not think I would have a chance. House Marsten are old, proud, worshippers of the Seven. House Coldbrook is ... not. But that has the advantage that expectations are low - we have a lowborn Lord, a bastard son, and an heir who utterly fails at every measure of masculinity our society has."
his tone isn't self-loathing, simply stating facts. "
Frankly, a woman who fills that role instead would do no damage to us, and would fit in easily. And come the next generation, all that will be remembered is that they have Marsten blood. I doubt even Lady Yve could drag this generation's reputation far out of the gutter."
Daveth shrugs. "
That sounds more self-pitying than it is. Honestly, it's a fair assessment of our true situation. I can't afford to carry any illusions about that."
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Baelon Drakeson Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:41 am
"
You're..."
Baelon chuckles.
"
It's not likely I'll often have an opportunity to say this to you Daveth, so pardon me if I enjoy it a little more than I probably should: you're wrong. Oh, probably not about all of it, but much. Foremost, you don't sound self-pitying, you sound utterly lack in ambition and self-worth. Let me tell you - I am where I am today not because of who my father may be or how good I am with a sword or how silver-tongued I am. I am where I am because I have fought tooth and nail to create opportunities for myself. If I do not like the situation I am in, I find ways to change it. You don't think the reputation of 'this generation' of House Coldbrook can be 'dragged out of the gutter'? That's on you then. Stop trying to maintain what it has been and make it what it can be. Otherwise the next generation will be no better off. Possibly worse."
Baelon collects himself, calming his demeanor.
"
Lady Yve has a long list of suitors, yes. A long list of rejected suitors. You have not met her, but I have. She is in many ways quite the opposite of her brother. He is naive, she is... well, cynical might be a bit too strong, but you get the gist. She is smart, and not swayed by men regaling her with tales of their martial prowess, or dashing good looks, or how much land or money they have. You have a much better chance than you give yourself credit for. Don't sell yourself short;
you may not be the most masculine of men, but you have abundant qualities that many highly masculine men are lacking - intelligence, thoughtfulness, sensitivity, and a stunning lack of arrogance.
"
As for Ser Theomore, I sympathize. I don't particularly like the man myself. Every family has a few bad eggs - that doesn't mean that the whole family should be deemed tainted. Besides, if anyone in Mountain's Reach knows Ser Theomore's dirty secrets and can help you take him down - without dragging House Tullison down with him - it would be Lady Yve. She could be a tremendous asset. Get her on your side and you'll have a much better chance at convincing Dunstan. Convince Dunstan and Ser Theomore won't be able to use House Tullison as a shield anymore. If he cares for anything other than himself it is his family - turn them against him and you will be hurting him more than anything else you could possible do.
"
Regarding House Marsten - that incident sounds like less of a problem with two Houses and more of a problem with men acting like idiots. House Coldbrook soldiers are supposed to be a disciplined lot, but clearly there are issues. Get your house in order and trust that Corrine will keep Ben in line. If not, Gwyn and I can handle it. The wildcard here is Garrett. You need to do something about him - even if it means sending him away. Convince him to spend a year or two living as a hedge knight, or in Essos as a sell-sword, or something. He needs to straighten up or ship out. Your father's not going to do it, so it's up to you. It's for Garrett's benefit as well - so long as he thinks he can get away with that sort of shit behavior without serious repercussions he won't change, and sooner or later he is going to find himself up to his neck in hot water because of it.
"
Beyond that incident, House Marsten under Corrine is not the stodgy hide-bound and tradition-laden house that it was in previous times. In the dark days ahead that you mentioned they will be fighting on the same side as us - I have made sure of that. It's not going to be every house for themselves - House Coldbrook will have plenty of allies. That's what you brought Gwyn and in for, isn't it?"
You're..."
Baelon chuckles.
"
It's not likely I'll often have an opportunity to say this to you Daveth, so pardon me if I enjoy it a little more than I probably should: you're wrong. Oh, probably not about all of it, but much. Foremost, you don't sound self-pitying, you sound utterly lack in ambition and self-worth. Let me tell you - I am where I am today not because of who my father may be or how good I am with a sword or how silver-tongued I am. I am where I am because I have fought tooth and nail to create opportunities for myself. If I do not like the situation I am in, I find ways to change it. You don't think the reputation of 'this generation' of House Coldbrook can be 'dragged out of the gutter'? That's on you then. Stop trying to maintain what it has been and make it what it can be. Otherwise the next generation will be no better off. Possibly worse."
Baelon collects himself, calming his demeanor.
"
Lady Yve has a long list of suitors, yes. A long list of rejected suitors. You have not met her, but I have. She is in many ways quite the opposite of her brother. He is naive, she is... well, cynical might be a bit too strong, but you get the gist. She is smart, and not swayed by men regaling her with tales of their martial prowess, or dashing good looks, or how much land or money they have. You have a much better chance than you give yourself credit for. Don't sell yourself short;
you may not be the most masculine of men, but you have abundant qualities that many highly masculine men are lacking - intelligence, thoughtfulness, sensitivity, and a stunning lack of arrogance.
"
As for Ser Theomore, I sympathize. I don't particularly like the man myself. Every family has a few bad eggs - that doesn't mean that the whole family should be deemed tainted. Besides, if anyone in Mountain's Reach knows Ser Theomore's dirty secrets and can help you take him down - without dragging House Tullison down with him - it would be Lady Yve. She could be a tremendous asset. Get her on your side and you'll have a much better chance at convincing Dunstan. Convince Dunstan and Ser Theomore won't be able to use House Tullison as a shield anymore. If he cares for anything other than himself it is his family - turn them against him and you will be hurting him more than anything else you could possible do.
"
Regarding House Marsten - that incident sounds like less of a problem with two Houses and more of a problem with men acting like idiots. House Coldbrook soldiers are supposed to be a disciplined lot, but clearly there are issues. Get your house in order and trust that Corrine will keep Ben in line. If not, Gwyn and I can handle it. The wildcard here is Garrett. You need to do something about him - even if it means sending him away. Convince him to spend a year or two living as a hedge knight, or in Essos as a sell-sword, or something. He needs to straighten up or ship out. Your father's not going to do it, so it's up to you. It's for Garrett's benefit as well - so long as he thinks he can get away with that sort of shit behavior without serious repercussions he won't change, and sooner or later he is going to find himself up to his neck in hot water because of it.
"
Beyond that incident, House Marsten under Corrine is not the stodgy hide-bound and tradition-laden house that it was in previous times. In the dark days ahead that you mentioned they will be fighting on the same side as us - I have made sure of that. It's not going to be every house for themselves - House Coldbrook will have plenty of allies. That's what you brought Gwyn and in for, isn't it?"
Baelon Drakeson- Posts : 4306
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Westeros
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:12 pm
Daveth shakes his head. "
I would not say I lack ambition. If I lacked ambition, I'd never have even asked you to form the banner house. If I lacked ambition, I wouldn't be trying so hard to get Ser Jorah into the Kingsguard. I'm simply well aware, from being House Coldbrook's chief diplomat, of just how low opinion is of our house, and I acknowledge that changing that is likely not the work of a single generation. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't plenty of *other* ways to improve my house that I'm working on, because I am.
"
With regards to Lady Yve..."
he trails off as an idea strikes him, before continuing. "
Tell you what, in a month's time, I am due to go to Tullison lands for a couple of months. Lord Dunstan asked me to see if there was anything I could do to help heal his mother, and I thought it could help relations between our houses if I tried, even if I don't actually accomplish anything. If, as I expect, I'm unable to accomplish anything of note, Lady Yve's first impression of me will be of someone who talks big, but can't accomplish much, which I doubt I could ever overcome. If, however, I do accomplish something noteworthy with regards to her mother's health, I will acknowledge your point that I'll have something that could make me stand out from the crowd, and I'll ... at least give the matter serious consideration.
"
And don't tempt with with talk of hurting Ser Theomore. I'm trying to walk away from that path, as being one without a good ending, and those thoughts do not make it easy.
"
With regards to our troops, the problem isn't discipline. The problem is that the open wound that lies at the heart of our family has bled out all over our troops, and they are and will remain very sensitive towards any harm directed at myself and my brother. And healing that wound is already my top priority. I did, however, have a few words to say to Lord Benedict about thought before action, and a few more towards my brother. We'll see how well they stick before doing anything major.
"
And I brought you and Lady Gwyneth in for a good number of reasons. And yes, that was one of them."
The problem is that I lack objectivity. I cannot clearly weigh up what's best for the house.
You think Lord Baelon can? Remember, he's a six-foot dragon in a four-foot cage. Whether he's consciously thinking it or not, the weaker the bars, the easier it will be for him to stretch out fully. And effectively, the person you'd be taking Lady Dyana from is him. He has a definite vested interest in you casting your eyes elsewhere.
But he is also a friend, and one more familiar with the deep currents than I am.
Consider: if your tie to your strongest and most reliable ally is through your banner house, then where does true power lie? Marriage alliance or no, you know that Ser Theomore could convince his nephew to abandon you if he thought the cost outweighed the benefit. Lord Baelon's trying to erode your position by making you overly reliant on him.
Maybe. Maybe not. Again, I lack the required objectivity. Sigh. This was much easier when I was simply reading about it in the histories.
"
Speaking of House Marsten, can you tell me about House Kreigar? What they're like, and what happened in the events surrounding the rift between them, and what you've heard about what's being done to heal it?"
I would not say I lack ambition. If I lacked ambition, I'd never have even asked you to form the banner house. If I lacked ambition, I wouldn't be trying so hard to get Ser Jorah into the Kingsguard. I'm simply well aware, from being House Coldbrook's chief diplomat, of just how low opinion is of our house, and I acknowledge that changing that is likely not the work of a single generation. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't plenty of *other* ways to improve my house that I'm working on, because I am.
"
With regards to Lady Yve..."
he trails off as an idea strikes him, before continuing. "
Tell you what, in a month's time, I am due to go to Tullison lands for a couple of months. Lord Dunstan asked me to see if there was anything I could do to help heal his mother, and I thought it could help relations between our houses if I tried, even if I don't actually accomplish anything. If, as I expect, I'm unable to accomplish anything of note, Lady Yve's first impression of me will be of someone who talks big, but can't accomplish much, which I doubt I could ever overcome. If, however, I do accomplish something noteworthy with regards to her mother's health, I will acknowledge your point that I'll have something that could make me stand out from the crowd, and I'll ... at least give the matter serious consideration.
"
And don't tempt with with talk of hurting Ser Theomore. I'm trying to walk away from that path, as being one without a good ending, and those thoughts do not make it easy.
"
With regards to our troops, the problem isn't discipline. The problem is that the open wound that lies at the heart of our family has bled out all over our troops, and they are and will remain very sensitive towards any harm directed at myself and my brother. And healing that wound is already my top priority. I did, however, have a few words to say to Lord Benedict about thought before action, and a few more towards my brother. We'll see how well they stick before doing anything major.
"
And I brought you and Lady Gwyneth in for a good number of reasons. And yes, that was one of them."
The problem is that I lack objectivity. I cannot clearly weigh up what's best for the house.
You think Lord Baelon can? Remember, he's a six-foot dragon in a four-foot cage. Whether he's consciously thinking it or not, the weaker the bars, the easier it will be for him to stretch out fully. And effectively, the person you'd be taking Lady Dyana from is him. He has a definite vested interest in you casting your eyes elsewhere.
But he is also a friend, and one more familiar with the deep currents than I am.
Consider: if your tie to your strongest and most reliable ally is through your banner house, then where does true power lie? Marriage alliance or no, you know that Ser Theomore could convince his nephew to abandon you if he thought the cost outweighed the benefit. Lord Baelon's trying to erode your position by making you overly reliant on him.
Maybe. Maybe not. Again, I lack the required objectivity. Sigh. This was much easier when I was simply reading about it in the histories.
"
Speaking of House Marsten, can you tell me about House Kreigar? What they're like, and what happened in the events surrounding the rift between them, and what you've heard about what's being done to heal it?"
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Baelon Drakeson Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:30 pm
"
Whatever the reason, bringing a blade to a fistfight is undisciplined."
He pauses, thinking.
"
I had not realized that you had had a change of heard regarding Ser Theomore. That is... probably for the best. The last thing House Coldbrook needs is a ruthless and conniving enemy. Especially one that hides behind the mantle of a friend. As for Lady Yve - all I can ask is that you keep an open mind. Make it a point to meet her for yourself when you are at Mountain's Reach. Perhaps you will hit it off, and perhaps you will find you cannot stand each other. Either way we will know how to proceed from there. If it doesn't work out, there are plenty of other options."
There was a Frey girl of about the right age at the tourney, wasn't there? Wait, she's the one tarnished by Theomore. No, we can do better than that. Gwyn might have some ideas... but I'll have to convince her that Dyana wasn't the right choice first. That could be... tricky.
"
There are two keys to becoming influential. First, make it so that nobody can ignore you;
be the person that everyone is talking about. Second, make sure that most of the people talking about you have something - anything - good to say about you. Even having enemies can help. Influence and standing are about having a choir of voices with your name on their lips. A solo voice, no matter how well they sing your praises, will be drowned out. House Coldbrook needs strong friends and allies other than House Marsten. If I could have you wed a half-dozen times over I would. Alas, once will have to do.
"
About House Kriegar... to be honest, I'm not sure when the grievance first started. I suspect that Lord Kellan never truly respected Lady Isobel's authority after the old lord died. The worst of it though came when Lady Isobel ordered the Marsten cavalry to attack some clansmen that could have assaulted Hartshorn rather than sending them to assist House Kriegar against a larger threat. That probably wouldn't have been too bad, except that Lord Kellan's only son died as a result, and their ancestral Valyrian blade was lost. Lady Corinne has been attempting to reconcile with him, though I do not have the latest news. I know she was trying to arrange another marriage for him so he could have another heir, and she offered him a position on her council."
Whatever the reason, bringing a blade to a fistfight is undisciplined."
He pauses, thinking.
"
I had not realized that you had had a change of heard regarding Ser Theomore. That is... probably for the best. The last thing House Coldbrook needs is a ruthless and conniving enemy. Especially one that hides behind the mantle of a friend. As for Lady Yve - all I can ask is that you keep an open mind. Make it a point to meet her for yourself when you are at Mountain's Reach. Perhaps you will hit it off, and perhaps you will find you cannot stand each other. Either way we will know how to proceed from there. If it doesn't work out, there are plenty of other options."
There was a Frey girl of about the right age at the tourney, wasn't there? Wait, she's the one tarnished by Theomore. No, we can do better than that. Gwyn might have some ideas... but I'll have to convince her that Dyana wasn't the right choice first. That could be... tricky.
"
There are two keys to becoming influential. First, make it so that nobody can ignore you;
be the person that everyone is talking about. Second, make sure that most of the people talking about you have something - anything - good to say about you. Even having enemies can help. Influence and standing are about having a choir of voices with your name on their lips. A solo voice, no matter how well they sing your praises, will be drowned out. House Coldbrook needs strong friends and allies other than House Marsten. If I could have you wed a half-dozen times over I would. Alas, once will have to do.
"
About House Kriegar... to be honest, I'm not sure when the grievance first started. I suspect that Lord Kellan never truly respected Lady Isobel's authority after the old lord died. The worst of it though came when Lady Isobel ordered the Marsten cavalry to attack some clansmen that could have assaulted Hartshorn rather than sending them to assist House Kriegar against a larger threat. That probably wouldn't have been too bad, except that Lord Kellan's only son died as a result, and their ancestral Valyrian blade was lost. Lady Corinne has been attempting to reconcile with him, though I do not have the latest news. I know she was trying to arrange another marriage for him so he could have another heir, and she offered him a position on her council."
Baelon Drakeson- Posts : 4306
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Westeros
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:07 pm
Daveth lets the discipline comment pass. He'd either understand or not, and it seemed he didn't. Probably for the best.
I'm pretty much certain to at least meet Lady Yve at Mountain's Reach, regardless of my intentions, so agreeing to that costs me nothing. Daveth simply nods at Lord Baelon's request.
"
If we'd gone with Garret as heir, and managed to get him legitimised, then I thought we might be able to get two decent marriages. But that path had its own problems."
Your ambition, you mean. How appropriate if your grasping for power is what costs you your happiness.
That wasn't the reason.
Keep saying that. Maybe I'll start believing it one day.
After listening to the story behind the Kreigars, Daveth nods. "
Thank you. I try and learn from other people's mistakes, as well as my own. If and when you hear the rest of it, I'd like to hear the full story."
So, what's the result? Regardless, I'll meet Lady Yve before I meet Lady Dyana again. So long as I can avoid dashing my future against the rocks she hides like so many before me, I could even discuss it with Dyana herself. She understands duty as I do, and she knows the people involved. And if I were to end it, she deserves the full story. But if I were to end it, a swift, clean break would be best, rather than wallowing and reasoning through it. But that requires the objectivity both myself and Lord Baelon lack. I want Dyana. But we have precisely one decent marriage option. Me. Lord Baelon is right that I do owe it to my family to make it as useful as possible, regardless of my personal feelings.
I have three months to think this over before I need to give any kind of decision, at least.
I'm pretty much certain to at least meet Lady Yve at Mountain's Reach, regardless of my intentions, so agreeing to that costs me nothing. Daveth simply nods at Lord Baelon's request.
"
If we'd gone with Garret as heir, and managed to get him legitimised, then I thought we might be able to get two decent marriages. But that path had its own problems."
Your ambition, you mean. How appropriate if your grasping for power is what costs you your happiness.
That wasn't the reason.
Keep saying that. Maybe I'll start believing it one day.
After listening to the story behind the Kreigars, Daveth nods. "
Thank you. I try and learn from other people's mistakes, as well as my own. If and when you hear the rest of it, I'd like to hear the full story."
So, what's the result? Regardless, I'll meet Lady Yve before I meet Lady Dyana again. So long as I can avoid dashing my future against the rocks she hides like so many before me, I could even discuss it with Dyana herself. She understands duty as I do, and she knows the people involved. And if I were to end it, she deserves the full story. But if I were to end it, a swift, clean break would be best, rather than wallowing and reasoning through it. But that requires the objectivity both myself and Lord Baelon lack. I want Dyana. But we have precisely one decent marriage option. Me. Lord Baelon is right that I do owe it to my family to make it as useful as possible, regardless of my personal feelings.
I have three months to think this over before I need to give any kind of decision, at least.
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Baelon Drakeson Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:54 pm
"
In truth, I think Lord Kellan's anger was justified but misplaced... but who can expect a grieving father to think rationally?"
He smiles wryly.
"
I've no fear of things souring like that between House Coldbrook and House Drakeson. At least not in our lifetimes."
He clears his throat.
"
I have... one more thing to ask of you. This conversation about your marriage... I haven't spoken with Gwyn about it. I would appreciate it if, for now, we kept it between us. If you decide that I am correct, we can broach the subject to her together. Dyana is her sister, so I'm sure you can see how Gwyn might be a bit... biased."
In truth, I think Lord Kellan's anger was justified but misplaced... but who can expect a grieving father to think rationally?"
He smiles wryly.
"
I've no fear of things souring like that between House Coldbrook and House Drakeson. At least not in our lifetimes."
He clears his throat.
"
I have... one more thing to ask of you. This conversation about your marriage... I haven't spoken with Gwyn about it. I would appreciate it if, for now, we kept it between us. If you decide that I am correct, we can broach the subject to her together. Dyana is her sister, so I'm sure you can see how Gwyn might be a bit... biased."
Baelon Drakeson- Posts : 4306
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Westeros
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Daveth Coldbrook Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:24 pm
(OOC: Bah! You spoil all my fun! :;
): )
Daveth considers Lord Baelon's last request for a few seconds before answering. "
I would not claim to know your wife better than you, but from my experience, she is intelligent, trustworthy, and perceptive, and she has as much of a vested interest in House Coldbrook prospering as we do. Just as I aim to put my personal desires aside for the sake of my house, I believe that she would as well.
"
If you are absolutely sure that you wish to keep this secret from your wife, I will respect your wishes. However, I believe it to be a mistake."
): )
Daveth considers Lord Baelon's last request for a few seconds before answering. "
I would not claim to know your wife better than you, but from my experience, she is intelligent, trustworthy, and perceptive, and she has as much of a vested interest in House Coldbrook prospering as we do. Just as I aim to put my personal desires aside for the sake of my house, I believe that she would as well.
"
If you are absolutely sure that you wish to keep this secret from your wife, I will respect your wishes. However, I believe it to be a mistake."
Daveth Coldbrook- Posts : 2004
Join date : 2015-03-25
Location : England
Re: The Sound of Wings (Semi-Closed)
by Baelon Drakeson Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:09 am
"
I said earlier that it thought it would be rare that I would have an opportunity to say you were wrong. You needn't have decided to prove that to me so quickly."
Baelon says with a smile.
"
You are absolutely correct about Gwyn. However, this isn't just about your marriage and happiness. It is about her sister's marriage and happiness. Gwyn would no doubt come around in time, but I am doubtful that it will be her first reaction. Especially if you were not yet resolved. I only thought to give you some time to think on it..."
He sighs.
"
...and to make sure I'll not be barred from my own bed tonight."
I said earlier that it thought it would be rare that I would have an opportunity to say you were wrong. You needn't have decided to prove that to me so quickly."
Baelon says with a smile.
"
You are absolutely correct about Gwyn. However, this isn't just about your marriage and happiness. It is about her sister's marriage and happiness. Gwyn would no doubt come around in time, but I am doubtful that it will be her first reaction. Especially if you were not yet resolved. I only thought to give you some time to think on it..."
He sighs.
"
...and to make sure I'll not be barred from my own bed tonight."
Baelon Drakeson- Posts : 4306
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Westeros
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