Re: Game Discussion

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Totally! It plays into his character just fine.

I was just trying to help clear up what looks like an OOC misunderstanding or similar. Hopefully I'm not just making it worse.

[Reader]

Totally! It plays into his character just fine.

I was just trying to help clear up what looks like an OOC misunderstanding or similar. Hopefully I'm not just making it worse.

Not at all. It's important we are all on this same page OOC.

Capitals is the convention for shouting, that's pretty well established globally and may even be the case in the source material (I am away from my books). Italics and underlining are more appropriate tools for emphasis.

[Ser Raynald Dulver]

Yes, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help AND the consideration.

It is just that suddenly I'm worried that this may be taken advantage of, with other players easily concluding whatever is more convenient from my posts regardless of what I'm writing, only because of my character's concept of being a brute. If that is the case then I can easily dispose Raynald aside and make a new character, very polite and gentle and courteous that cannot be acused of being agressive regardless of what he says. It is really no problem at all. I just don't want to be impaired by an aesthetic choice.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Whoa, that would be a bit extreme. I mean, I can see how, with all the stuff that's been going on, you might get that idea about us...but this sort of thing is really unusual in this group. Those who are there will have IC reactions to your IC action, but then you'll have chances to deal with those reactions IC as well...

I don't believe anyone's planning on holding this against you OOC;
it would be a pretty tacky thing to do.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Yes, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help AND the consideration.

It is just that suddenly I'm worried that this may be taken advantage of, with other players easily concluding whatever is more convenient from my posts regardless of what I'm writing, only because of my character's concept of being a brute. If that is the case then I can easily dispose Raynald aside and make a new character, very polite and gentle and courteous that cannot be acused of being agressive regardless of what he says. It is really no problem at all. I just don't want to be impaired by an aesthetic choice.

Well, step 1 is to be aware that, especially with IC and OOC tension running high, you should be very, very careful about not giving the wrong impression.

Step 2 is to let out a big sigh and realize that there will always be misunderstandings, and that there are a number of characters more than happy to capitalize/invent those misunderstandings for personal gain. That won't change even if you play the meekest lamb in the land.

[Loreia]

Here's how I see it.

Calling her "
woman"
as opposed to the appropriate honorific "
my lady"
is insulting to the lady of a noble house, almost like a slap to the face. Raynald should know this, he's part of the family of House Dulver. He'd have likely dealt with other lords and ladies and addressed them as "
m'lord"
or "
m'lady"
.

Telling her to prove that her friends will cooperate in order to get you to back down is unacceptable. Call it whatever you want, that's extortion. And since she has expressed that you do not fight with her friends, you would be wise not to, or at the very least be discreet and indirect about it. Openly bad relations between houses aren't good for either involved, and it doesn't take much to start a war in this setting.

Be a brute if you want, in fact most Ironborn characters are entitled to be. However, your character, mad or evil as he may be, should know all this. Now, even if Raynald knows better than to behave this way, that's not to say that it wouldn't be In-Character for him. If you want to go through with picking on a highborn lady in front of a septon, be my guest, but Corrine would be entitled to entering intrigue with you. Either way, the septon may enter intrigue anyway to get you to back down. We're all In-Character here.

[Theomore Tullison]

Sometimes, it may be prudent to ask "
Did you just mean that?"
before firing away with conclusions though.

[Ser Raynald Dulver]

Here's how I see it.

Calling her "
woman"
as opposed to the appropriate honorific "
my lady"
is insulting to the lady of a noble house, almost like a slap to the face. Raynald should know this, he's part of the family of House Dulver. He'd have likely dealt with other lords and ladies and addressed them as "
m'lord"
or "
m'lady"
.

True, but I have no problem with Raynald being rude, and being rude does not means being threatening. When one player stated to me that he would take providence over my character threatening the other, I HAD to object explaining that it was not true. Then all this discussion started.

Telling her to prove that her friends will cooperate in order to get you to back down is unacceptable. Call it whatever you want, that's extortion.

No it is not. She said she did not want conflict, I asked her to prove it. Extortion by definition means the use of force towards an objective. I was not using force against anyone. I was challenging an adult to an duel after being offended as it is common and perfectly normal in the setting we are playing. And Corrine was not that adult. In fact Raynald agreed in setting down if she helped him put some sense inside the other PCs heads.

And since she has expressed that you do not fight with her friends, you would be wise not to, or at the very least be discreet and indirect about it. Openly bad relations between houses aren't good for either involved, and it doesn't take much to start a war in this setting.

I fail to see why her wishes or will towards something somehow should interfere with what I did. The same preocupation with "
bad House relations"
existed prior to my House being offended openly.

[Reader]

Sometimes, it may be prudent to ask "
Did you just mean that?"
before firing away with conclusions though.

This might be one of those times! If Corrine is happy with it, Raynald could go back and tweak his posts if they came off stronger than intended.

[Ser Raynald Dulver]

That's the whole point. My post didn't come out strong and I will not edit it. I refuse to accept that it will be considered as such too. Yes my character is rude, yes he is menacing, yes he is evil and he is perfectly capable of doing everything that everyone is saying, but he did not threatened Corrine, much less extorted her. This is nonsensical. Now her character can be offended by how Raynald referred to her (by woman), she can be disgusted by the way he spoke to Baelon, she may consider him a villain. She may even be afraid of him. But she cannot consider that he threatened her. I refuse to play if she does.

Now, if she will pretend that he threatened her, than I obviously have nothing against it. It has reason and it is based on what actually happened.

[Benedict Marsten]

Raynald to help me clarify what I interpreted I would like to ask some questions.

1.Is the all capitals a raised voice?

2.Hysterics in his eyes is this:hys·ter·ic
/hiˈsterik/
noun
plural noun: hysterics
1. informal
a wildly emotional and exaggerated reaction.

3.When you address her as "
woman"
did you not IC understand that she was the Leige Lady of a prestigious house and head of the Investigators?

4.You do understand she has not kept a secret from anyone present? She was there with Athlestan not Baelon.

I just want to note that your aesthetic choice is going to effect how people react to you. This scene reminds me of Sansa and the hound. She was scared of the Hound because of just that. His presence alone was threating even after he saved her. That is kind of how I saw this. You may have been trying to be helpful but your threatening and mad persona shines through brighter than your words.

P.s. this is just me trying to be helpful not antagonizing.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Okay, hold on a second.

You don't really get to decide how people react to what you do. In this case I refer to both IC and OOC. You can say you didn't intend to be threatening, but whether or not people find you threatening is only partially your call to make. It's also partly how people react to you.

I'm not trying to tell you what you meant to be, but I am telling you that it's not unreasonable for Corrine to feel threatened by Reynald's stated conduct.

She may be, or may not be...that's up to her. If he'd done it to Gwyn, she sure would have though. It wouldn't be a huge big deal, or ruin your character, or have massive consequences. It would just be a sour moment between them.

There's no need to overreact here.

[Ser Raynald Dulver]

[1.Is the all capitals a raised voice?]

Yes.

2.Hysterics in his eyes is this:hys·ter·ic
/hiˈsterik/
noun
plural noun: hysterics
1. informal
a wildly emotional and exaggerated reaction.

Yes, wide opened eyes.

3.When you address her as "
woman"
did you not IC understand that she was the Leige Lady of a prestigious house and head of the Investigators?

I considered that Raynald not even know who Corrine is and consciously choose to use that word to show both Raynald's ignorance and his rudeness.

4.You do understand she has not kept a secret from anyone present? She was there with Athlestan not Baelon.

I fail to see why this is relevant.

I just want to note that your aesthetic choice is going to effect how people react to you. This scene reminds me of Sansa and the hound. She was scared of the Hound because of just that. His presence alone was threating even after he saved her. That is kind of how I saw this. You may have been trying to be helpful but your threatening and mad persona shines through brighter than your words.

It is different to be afraid and to be threatened. The first happens regardless of one's actions. She could be afraid of my character SLEEPING. That's out of my control. The second can only happen upon "
the act of threatening someone"
. This presumes an action. One that did not ocurred in my post. As I said before I have no problem with other players digesting the way they find better what my character does or say. What is not possible is for considering that he took actions that he didn't, unless we're talking about characters consciously lying and deceiving (then I have no problem at all).

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I just want to mention that the entire House Coldbrook contingent left that thread several posts before the challenge.

Uuuuurgh. Now I have to change my post again. So, is he shouting that stuff after you then?

[Ser Raynald Dulver]

Okay, hold on a second.

You don't really get to decide how people react to what you do. In this case I refer to both IC and OOC. You can say you didn't intend to be threatening, but whether or not people find you threatening is only partially your call to make. It's also partly how people react to you.

I'm not trying to tell you what you meant to be, but I am telling you that it's not unreasonable for Corrine to feel threatened by Reynald's stated conduct.

She may be, or may not be...that's up to her. If he'd done it to Gwyn, she sure would have though. It wouldn't be a huge big deal, or ruin your character, or have massive consequences. It would just be a sour moment between them.

There's no need to overreact here.

When it is about one action performed by my character it is me to have the final say, yes, The same goes for you. It is the same difference of being attracted to someone and to be seduced by someone. Exactly the same situation. Afraid/attracted, seduced/threatened.

[Loreia]

Telling her to prove that her friends will cooperate in order to get you to back down is unacceptable. Call it whatever you want, that's extortion.

No it is not. She said she did not want conflict, I asked her to prove it. Extortion by definition means the use of force towards an objective. I was not using force against anyone. I was challenging an adult to an duel after being offended as it is common and perfectly normal in the setting we are playing.

Unless during war or in a trial by combat, these duels are usually not to the death. In any case, you said you would back off if she would prove/ensure that her friends would cooperate. That says that if she doesn't, you wouldn't relent. You are suggesting the duel you demanded of her friend as the force you would use if she did not.

And since she has expressed that you do not fight with her friends, you would be wise not to, or at the very least be discreet and indirect about it. Openly bad relations between houses aren't good for either involved, and it doesn't take much to start a war in this setting.

I fail to see why her wishes or will towards something somehow should interfere with what I did. The same preocupation with "
bad House relations"
existed prior to my House being offended openly.

Because she is the head of a noble house. Her wishes and will are law. Going through with the duel would risk involving her demanding reparations or justice, especially since Baelon is married to her cousin.

All that aside, this is between you and her. Taking into account what you posted in reply to Ben, I would say she could remind you of her status IC and leave it at that.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

You declare what your character does, yes.

You don't get to declare how other people react. You can tell us what you intend, how you'd like us to react...but that's the extent of it. And we may or may not decide that your stated action equals that reaction in our characters.

I think it's a good thing to discuss this sort of thing OOC, to try to avoid misunderstandings, but I feel like this particular discussion is swinging kind of wildly out of control when you threaten to drop the character entirely over what is really a very small matter.

[Ser Raynald Dulver]

And it is not overreacting. Raynald openly called Baelon a "
shitty white-haired cunt"
or something like that (I'm sorry Baelon, but I really find this funny hehehe, it remembers me of King Robert yelling at the Lannisters). He sent a kiss to one of his soldiers. He challenge the other PC to a duel in a very rude way. I have no problem at all with anyone taking whatever conclusions they want about those actions that I consciously took.

But what we are discussing for a time now, to my real surprise, is the one part of my post that I took the caution to be very specific about both accepting what Corrine said AND answering in a not aggressive way, even if this way is indeed rude and direct (by insinuating that she could shot him). But never threatening.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Never intended to be threatening.

I know I keep hammering that point, but that's just because I want to drive it home. He's not trying to threaten Corrine, but that doesn't mean she won't feel threatened. A person can be unintentionally intimidating, and in fact often are.

[Benedict Marsten]

[1.Is the all capitals a raised voice?]

Yes.

2.Hysterics in his eyes is this:hys·ter·ic
/hiˈsterik/
noun
plural noun: hysterics
1. informal
a wildly emotional and exaggerated reaction.

Yes, wide opened eyes.

3.When you address her as "
woman"
did you not IC understand that she was the Leige Lady of a prestigious house and head of the Investigators?

I considered that Raynald not even know who Corrine is and consciously choose to use that word to show both Raynald's ignorance and his rudeness.

4.You do understand she has not kept a secret from anyone present? She was there with Athlestan not Baelon.

I fail to see why this is relevant.

I just want to note that your aesthetic choice is going to effect how people react to you. This scene reminds me of Sansa and the hound. She was scared of the Hound because of just that. His presence alone was threating even after he saved her. That is kind of how I saw this. You may have been trying to be helpful but your threatening and mad persona shines through brighter than your words.

It is different to be afraid and to be threatened. The first happens regardless of one's actions. She could be afraid of my character SLEEPING. That's out of my control. The second can only happen upon "
the act of threatening someone"
. This presumes an action. One that did not ocurred in my post. As I said before I have no problem with other players digesting the way they find better what my character does or say. What is not possible is for considering that he took actions that he didn't, unless we're talking about characters consciously lying and deceiving (then I have no problem at all).

4.

But why all the secrecy HERE? What do you fear?"

You accused her of hiding something.

This will be my last post on this, as by your post above you have raised your voice at me and it was not my intention to anger any one. I apologize and will return to my hermitage far away from the ooc boards.

[Ser Raynald Dulver]

I do not know how to make my point any more clear than this: you're saying that, as my character has this "
seductive air"
around him (he moves swiftly, he is pretty, he has that kind of look on him, he is gracious and all) I can't complain if suddenly one other player considers that my character is seducing his character. What happened is that I unconsciously seduced the PC. Well, of course this is nonsense. If no one here can see what I'm talking about then there is nothing else to do.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Hm. I'm wondering if this may be a language thing suddenly.

Threatened has multiple meanings. It can be a verb;
'to threaten.' Or can also be an adverb, 'to feel threatened.'

Let me try substituting the word 'threatened' in my statements with 'afraid,' as the context I'm using it in is roughly equivalent.

"
Reynard wasn't intending to threaten Corrine, but she felt afraid of him nonetheless, and reacted accordingly."


Does that work better? To me, it means the same thing I was saying before, but I realize now that context may not have been obvious.

I do apologize if that's the case.

[Ser Raynald Dulver]

You accused her of hiding something.

No I didn't, I asked "
why the secrecy"
, after all the whole discussion IC was one House accusing the other of being uncollaborative, but with only one actually sharing it's knowledge. Are we denying now that those PCs were refusing to share their information? Should I call that what? Privacy?

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

To be fair, NONE of the Houses have shared knowledge publically yet. We've all been conducting our own individual and often conflicting investigations so far.

However, Coldbrook/Drakeson is certainly no different in that respect.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

To be fair, NONE of the Houses have shared knowledge publically yet. We've all been conducting our own individual and often conflicting investigations so far.

However, Coldbrook/Drakeson is certainly no different in that respect.

To be fair, Corrine is openly sharing her findings, she's just not riding around the Riverlands to brief everyone on each detail. House Marsten has been trying to maintain as neutral a posture as it can, so collaboration would have been potentially risky. Corrine is certainly not intending to be secretive. She's even being honest to Theo, hehe. :;
):

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