Re: Athelstan - Iron mines

[Reader]

I'll just quote Nathan:

Objective: I am a great guy and you should agree with me.

Charm Defeat: Yep.. your a great guy, but I still don't agree with you.

Convince Defeat: Okay, I agree with you, but my opinion of you has not changed.

Defeat in a Charm gives +1 Disposition and +1D to the next Intrigue. Period. It does not motivate, or promote action in any way.

However, disposition matters. Affectionate people are willing to risk their lives to protect you, Malicious people are willing to risk their lives to hurt you. Septon Arlyn that dislikes you is likely to speak of you in negative terms, he is not likely to actively spread that opinion, that's crossing into hostile territory. Indifferent septon Arlyn will not speak of you in any particularly positive or negative terms.

Expanded example of how it could be interpreted:

Dislike Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority because he is arrogant and unwilling to accept that others should have been included.
Indifferent Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority, but he probably did not have any ill intentions, perhaps he needs some further tutoring on account of his youth?
Amiable Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority, but his heart is in the right place, but he is young and will learn in time.

Arlyn at dislike, but convinced: Baelon acts can be justified by the circumstances, but he is arrogant and unapologetic about the consequences, unwilling to accept that he could have handled it better.

The advantages of a keyboard! Cheers Theomore, this plus Nathaniel gets me where I want to be.

This is very close to my interpretation and those disposition stances are reasonable (but the septon should not feel bound by them).

If either player is unhappy we can go back to a negotiated yield.

[Septon Arlyn]

I'll just quote Nathan:

Objective: I am a great guy and you should agree with me.

Charm Defeat: Yep.. your a great guy, but I still don't agree with you.

Convince Defeat: Okay, I agree with you, but my opinion of you has not changed.

Defeat in a Charm gives +1 Disposition and +1D to the next Intrigue. Period. It does not motivate, or promote action in any way.

However, disposition matters. Affectionate people are willing to risk their lives to protect you, Malicious people are willing to risk their lives to hurt you. Septon Arlyn that dislikes you is likely to speak of you in negative terms, he is not likely to actively spread that opinion, that's crossing into hostile territory. Indifferent septon Arlyn will not speak of you in any particularly positive or negative terms.

Expanded example of how it could be interpreted:

Dislike Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority because he is arrogant and unwilling to accept that others should have been included.
Indifferent Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority, but he probably did not have any ill intentions, perhaps he needs some further tutoring on account of his youth?
Amiable Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority, but his heart is in the right place, but he is young and will learn in time.

Arlyn at dislike, but convinced: Baelon acts can be justified by the circumstances, but he is arrogant and unapologetic about the consequences, unwilling to accept that he could have handled it better.

This.

Baelon I'm not OOC out to get you. But your IC actions have IC reactions from others.

[Athelstan]

Yes I agree with Theomore and Nathan, of course he doesnt have to RP that way and just say Ill keep an eye on you or just give him the benefit of doubt.

[Theomore Tullison]

I think, not sure, but you only use 1 technique per intrigue, otherwise Read target to find an opponent technique is useless and or taking any specialty other than Charm. I no longer have my books at hand... stupid me forgot butter and other ingredients... runing to the store.

Edit also Septon is not taking yield, dont force it down the player. Hr is saying he accepts DEFEAT, not YIELD

That would make the manipulate action rather pointless.

I am starting to lean towards that the consequences of defeat should reflect the technique that dealt the most influence, as a general rule. This will accommodate that sometimes, how you attempt to reach your objective might change during the course of the intrigue. Let's say you start with a convince, then switching to bargain because, say, what your opponent wants is something you don't mind giving them (that sounds a lot like an incoming yield to me, but maybe you then could get more out of the deal with bargain?).

At the same time, this would kill the potential abuse of a persuasion 5 character hammering away with 5 influence per DoS charm, and then switch to whatever technique suits him best.

Obviously not something that can be hard-coded.

[Reader]

I think, not sure, but you only use 1 technique per intrigue, otherwise Read target to find an opponent technique is useless and or taking any specialty other than Charm. I no longer have my books at hand... stupid me forgot butter and other ingredients... runing to the store.

Edit also Septon is not taking yield, dont force it down the player. Hr is saying he accepts DEFEAT, not YIELD

That would make the manipulate action rather pointless.

I am starting to lean towards that the consequences of defeat should reflect the technique that dealt the most influence, as a general rule. This will accommodate that sometimes, how you attempt to reach your objective might change during the course of the intrigue. Let's say you start with a convince, then switching to bargain because, say, what your opponent wants is something you don't mind giving them (that sounds a lot like an incoming yield to me, but maybe you then could get more out of the deal with bargain?).

At the same time, this would kill the potential abuse of a persuasion 5 character hammering away with 5 influence per DoS charm, and then switch to whatever technique suits him best.

Obviously not something that can be hard-coded.

As a side note I endorse this too generally. Some technique switching is appropriate and fun, but shouldn't be a habit.

[Athelstan]

I yield Ser Theomore lol

[Septon Arlyn]

Maybe... maybe the last 2 techniques could determine the intrigue defeat?

This would also make the mollify action useful for restoring composure to your enemy so that you can defeat them with the technique of your preference.

Trust me, if I could hammer away with 5 per DOS things would have gone much differently, however there was a specific outcome I wanted so that is why I went with convince

[Nathaniel Mason]

I do not think the entire Intrigue system needs to be re-tooled for this.

While neither Charm nor Seduce promote an action mechanically, I think it's fair that Charm would soften the Septon's outlook on the one hand... or gain information for the seducer that the target does not consider sensitive on the other.

Both techniques only change the person's attitude, not their opinions or beliefs.

[Septon Arlyn]

My biggest problem is that there is no true reason for EVER mollifying an opponent. It is completely counter intuitive to your goals. However in RL there are plenty of reasons to mollify people. Like if you threaten them too much and sense that they might be about to attack you, mollification could be a tool you use to prevent violence.

During an intrigue, you may press your opponent too far, or see that
your opponent is perilously close to defeating an ally. You can repair
damage to Composure by rolling a Formidable (12) Persuasion test to
mollify a target. Your test is modified by the target’s disposition as normal.
A success restores an amount of Composure equal to your Persuasion
rank. Each additional degree restores another point of Composure.

I feel like the last two consecutive influence techniques used in defeating an opponent in an intrigue might be effective for expanding the use of the Mollify technique

[Nathaniel Mason]

Mollify is more often used to help an ally than your opponent.

Mollify is also helpful if you were manipulated into a technique and want to undo some of the damage.

(Did you just threaten me, Septon?)

Like Fast talk and some of the other actions, it's uses can be limited by circumstance.

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