Re: Game Discussion

by **Baelon Drakeson** Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:04 pm

I've come to the conclusion that Daemon is a mirror - how people see him is a reflection of who they are and what they want (or fear) him to be. To some he is a monster or a diabolic schemer, but he was also a man looking out for his family, fighting for what he saw as right.

In part, I think that is because he is complex character with goals, motivations, and methods that evolve significantly over the course of his life. It's easy to forget the span of time in that story. Really though, how many of us can look back on our lives and say that we are the same sort of person we were a decade or two ago? I think Martin has captured that well with Daemon, but we get it all compressed into a couple short works.

To put it another way: find a middle-ground between Theo and Ben, throw in some of Daveth's brains and Walton's swordarm, and finally wrap it up with Baelon's face and plunk it down on a dragon - that is Prince Daemon. In his youth he was more Theo, as he ages he becomes more Ben.

But then, I too am biased, and perhaps this is just a reflection of what I want him to be. Laughing

by **Theomore Tullison** Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:38 pm

I don`t really see that many similarities between Daemon and Theo, aside from the fact that both are capable of signing off on the murder of innocents. Daemon is a temperamental charismatic leader whereas Theo is cold blooded and generally doesn`t so much lead as nudge others to act according to his whims. That isn`t to say that Theo doesn`t have any berserk buttons, but you`ll see Daemon reacting rather forcefully for much lesser provocation than Theo would. However, if Theo had a dragon and royal blood he might have done the same to preempt such provocations, but I get the impression that Daemon is motivated more by impulse than calculation, at least in his younger days.

So the older Daemon may well be the most similar to Theo.

by **Ayleth Bartheld** Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:52 pm

I probably should read the Rogue Prince, but the story of the Dance kind of lost me when Martin had characters called Mushroom and Cheese in his epic quasi-history.

by **Yoren longshore** Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:00 pm

Mushroom is all right, as he is a fool you can let it slide... The book is decent for expanding the world, and I like that it shows clear bias throughout, but I do wish that slightly more work had been put into it. I like the idea of names of two villains being lost in time, but it slightly ruins the flow at the same time.

I think that some of the rage Daemon showed can be put down to simple leadership. Nobody wishes to go against the sociopath with a fully grown dragon at his disposal!
I think that him mirroring the people that reads his story sounds sketchy (I like to not think of myself as a calculating murder :;
): ) but I also think that it is something true in that everyone thinks slightly different about him.
What is what I like about the stories of the maesters is that they are tainted, just like real life, and nobody knows what is truly going on.
A real life example that I like to use is Muammar Gaddafi. You can either think of him as the man who created the african bank and held peace in one of the worlds most volatile regions, or you think of him as a corrupt villain who considered using mustard gas against his own people, and Daemon is the same.
You can either think of him as a progressive who lowered crime in the capital, championed a womans cause, fought for his country on the stepstones, and died while fighting for what he believed in, or you could think of him as someone who abused the trust of his brother, tried to topple him, killed people to marry their wives (like David from the bible) and died while trying desperately to drag his nephew with him into death.

Both sides are true, but that is the case of all individuals. Charles Manson was among the first to fight against global warming, while Mother Theresa forced people to convert and supported the removal of some human rights in India!

There is no such thing as a bad guy, only bad actions...

by **Baelon Drakeson** Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:24 pm

Theomore Tullison wrote:I don`t really see that many similarities between Daemon and Theo, aside from the fact that both are capable of signing off on the murder of innocents. Daemon is a temperamental charismatic leader whereas Theo is cold blooded and generally doesn`t so much lead as nudge others to act according to his whims. That isn`t to say that Theo doesn`t have any berserk buttons, but you`ll see Daemon reacting rather forcefully for much lesser provocation than Theo would. However, if Theo had a dragon and royal blood he might have done the same to preempt such provocations, but I get the impression that Daemon is motivated more by impulse than calculation, at least in his younger days.

So the older Daemon may well be the most similar to Theo.

The aspect of Theo I was talking about was the devil-may-care attitude about the consequences or propriety of one's actions - for instance the seduction of Sophia, Floreta, and (attempt at) Ayleth, prodding Benjen Frey into unspeakable violence against a poor serving girl, cheating in jousts to make a few coin, etc. I'm not saying Daemon would perform the same actions (though he was definitely a womanizer), but the attitude towards consequences is the same.

Also, I see Daemon as much more coldly calculating than the berserk you are describing.

Yoren longshore wrote:I think that him mirroring the people that reads his story sounds sketchy (I like to not think of myself as a calculating murder :;
): ) but I also think that it is something true in that everyone thinks slightly different about him.

I didn't mean it quite that literally. Laughing

Yoren longshore wrote:What is what I like about the stories of the maesters is that they are tainted, just like real life, and nobody knows what is truly going on.
A real life example that I like to use is Muammar Gaddafi. You can either think of him as the man who created the african bank and held peace in one of the worlds most volatile regions, or you think of him as a corrupt villain who considered using mustard gas against his own people, and Daemon is the same.
You can either think of him as a progressive who lowered crime in the capital, championed a womans cause, fought for his country on the stepstones, and died while fighting for what he believed in, or you could think of him as someone who abused the trust of his brother, tried to topple him, killed people to marry their wives (like David from the bible) and died while trying desperately to drag his nephew with him into death.

This is precisely what I meant. It's not that readers see themselves in him, but rather that a reader's interpretation of him is inherently shaped by aspects of their own personality and values;
while that is technically true of all characters, unlike many characters in fiction the effect is extreme enough to create wildly different interpretations.

Compare to, say, Luke Skywalker. I don't know

Yoren longshore wrote:Both sides are true, but that is the case of all individuals. Charles Manson was among the first to fight against global warming, while Mother Theresa forced people to convert and supported the removal of some human rights in India!

There is no such thing as a bad guy, only bad actions...

Philosophically I\m on the fence about that. However I can say that in my opinion the best way to portray a villain is to find the way they view the world (often quite twisted, but sometimes more accurate that most) such that their actions actually seem to them to be the morally right thing to do. "
For the greater good"
is a common one, sometimes it is an excessive and paranoid self-protection, sometimes (perhaps most often) it is a simple inequitable valuation of others' feelings/well-being.

by **Reader** Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:47 pm

A splendid discussion, hard to join in with ropey PC access. Sad

However, think we have Daemon's first roll in game (he has made various passive awareness/deception tests so far).

viewtopic.php?f=213&
t=2803

by **Davain Bartheld** Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:58 pm

So House Bartheld is planning a small feast and tourney that was going to be with Tymon, but he doesn't appear to be here anymore. For Rping I was thinking of still playing it out. With Reader permission, could a suborn be set up this offseason to hold the event. Of course all PC are invited.

by **Reader** Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:18 pm

Davain Bartheld wrote:So House Bartheld is planning a small feast and tourney that was going to be with Tymon, but he doesn't appear to be here anymore. For Rping I was thinking of still playing it out. With Reader permission, could a suborn be set up this offseason to hold the event. Of course all PC are invited.

A chance for people to meet/scheme/knock each other off horses while I wait for PC access.

Please note the resources invested in your house forum.

by **Baelon Drakeson** Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:55 pm

Which reminds me - a subforum for the Drakeson Tourney would be lovely.

For those that might not be aware - in 126/05, House Drakeson is hosting a tourney to celebrate the birth of our son, Mikael Drakeson - joust only, sorry melee and archer fans. It's regional, but centered between the North and the Riverlands, so that "
region"
is shifted a bit northward. However, it is likely that all of you will hear about it (of course, close friends, relatives, and people of note in our region will have gotten personal invitations).

The bulk of the 500+ competitors (and other NPCs) in attendance will presumably be predominantly from the North, the Riverlands, and the various houses of The Bite. A certain prince and his family will have been invited, but who knows if they'll actually show up...

As we are a northern house and inviting other northerners, knighthood is not required to participate in the joust so long as the competitor is vouched for by their lord (similar to the Hand's Tourney).

For the sake of time (and not having to roll out hundreds of matches), much of the competition will be handled without using actual joust mechanics, and only the top 8 or 16 will actually be rolled out - the mechanics are still being worked out (and will of course be approved by Reader) and will include ransoms, so that even those not super-skilled at jousting would be able to walk away with some earnings, but those who do poorly may lose money - as an actual joust would

by **Ser Alfred Haigh** Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:06 pm

That sounds very inviting !

by **Reader** Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:07 pm

viewforum.php?f=240

Drakeson tourney. Running jousts (even with full mechanics) is quick and easy once I have a PC again, or I can provide stats for others to do so.

I once blew through a round or two of jousting over a weekend for our first story. Smile

by **Benedict Marsten** Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:26 am

Davain Bartheld wrote:So House Bartheld is planning a small feast and tourney that was going to be with Tymon, but he doesn't appear to be here anymore. For Rping I was thinking of still playing it out. With Reader permission, could a suborn be set up this offseason to hold the event. Of course all PC are invited.

Do you have a tentative date?

by **Davain Bartheld** Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:12 am

I'm thinking 126/08, but I have to talk it out with the rest of my house and Dulver before I finalize the date

by **Baelon Drakeson** Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:25 am

Wouldn't it have to be after Market Town? We had to announce all of our house actions up to 126/10 to finalize our resources before the event.

by **Davain Bartheld** Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:41 am

Oh, well if that's the case then I'm sure we can accommodate.

by **Kevan Lyras** Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:07 pm

Nice roll Theo!
viewtopic.php?f=213&
t=2803#p87050

I see the old schemer didnt lose his mojo during the break :;
):

by **Reader** Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:25 pm

Kevan Lyras wrote:Nice roll Theo!
viewtopic.php?f=213&
t=2803#p87050

I see the old schemer didnt lose his mojo during the break :;
):

No rust on Theomore! Also underlines character growth for PCs - Theomore would have missed that roll with his original character sheet. Smile

Hopefully Theomore and I can hint at what was learned from the awareness roll during the rest of the scene so everyone can enjoy the fun.

PCs are gaining in status and gradually becoming more important in the realm and more competent at a personal level. Dragon's Dance was (and is!) bonkers ambitious, but starting before the civil war lets us build a rich backstory of friends and rivalries together. Hopefully this will make fighting against old friends and alongside former foes during the civil war more meaningful, rather than simply being written in as each PC's background.

Glad to get a chance to roll out a major character as I slowly gear up again. Looking forward to picking up the pace once PC access is restored.

by **Ayleth Bartheld** Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:37 am

I'm a little nervous about playing out the war itself, since much of the progress of the war will be dictated by the dragons (which are basically fantasy WMDs), and they are really beyond player influence. It's quite possible for a house to lose all its power and defense holdings to a single dragon without any real way to defend itself. It will be nerve-wracking.

by **Reader** Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:31 am

Ayleth Bartheld wrote:I'm a little nervous about playing out the war itself, since much of the progress of the war will be dictated by the dragons (which are basically fantasy WMDs), and they are really beyond player influence. It's quite possible for a house to lose all its power and defense holdings to a single dragon without any real way to defend itself. It will be nerve-wracking.

The best defence against dragons is probably political rather than defence, archers and siege engines, although the bold may try the latter. Having a dragon rider to protect you and avoiding the ire of dragon riders is wise "
: they may settle old grudges during the war... Evil or Very Mad

by **Ser Alfred Haigh** Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:56 am

Everyone dies, but not everyone truly lives. Do you want to live forever ? Razz

by **Ser Jorah Holt** Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:24 pm

it should be noted that the most dangerous place to be is in Kings Landing.
Incidents of major house burning were fairly rare, unless you really annoy a faction

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:59 pm

Ayleth Bartheld wrote:I'm a little nervous about playing out the war itself, since much of the progress of the war will be dictated by the dragons (which are basically fantasy WMDs), and they are really beyond player influence.

Well, we do now have two Black characters of dragonriding descent, and by canon the Blacks the call on the dragonseeds to become riders. It's quite possible that dragons could end up under direct player control. Lucky for you, one of those potential riders is marrying a Bartheld.

Ser Jorah Holt wrote:it should be noted that the most dangerous place to be is in Kings Landing.
Incidents of major house burning were fairly rare, unless you really annoy a faction

By canon Prince Aemond torches much of the Riverlands to draw out Daemon. None of us are so far from the Riverlands that we are completely safe from a vengeful detour by one or the other.

But then we have already had massive departures from the canon due to player actions. I suspect much of the war will be different as a result.
Also the Dornish have already killed one dragon &
rider, back during Aegon's conquest. Who's to say they can't do it again?

by **Kevan Lyras** Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:08 pm

It's quite possible that dragons could end up under direct player control. Lucky for you, one of those potential riders is marrying a Bartheld.

I have full confidence in Reader guiding this game with the same success as he did so far, but dragons under direct PC control are a very delicate matter that need a lot of balancing...

by **Yoren longshore** Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:09 pm

Ayleth Bartheld wrote:I'm a little nervous about playing out the war itself, since much of the progress of the war will be dictated by the dragons (which are basically fantasy WMDs), and they are really beyond player influence. It's quite possible for a house to lose all its power and defense holdings to a single dragon without any real way to defend itself. It will be nerve-wracking.

Dragons aren't unstoppable, The storming of the dragonpit is a prime example. :;
):
Admittedly those were smaller and stuck, but still...
Also, if either party sends their dragons to attack, then they will expose themselves to retaliation, so hopefully the war will be men engaging men, and on separate battlefields, dragons engaging dragons. I can at least hope :;
):

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:45 pm

Kevan Lyras wrote:I have full confidence in Reader guiding this game with the same success as he did so far, but dragons under direct PC control are a very delicate matter that need a lot of balancing...

I completely agree on both points. Keeping in mind, of course, that having a dragon and being able to do whatever you want with it are two very different things. Even Aemond and Daemon are (theoretically) bound to follow orders from their respective Queens. Ask the Two Betrayers how going rogue worked out for them...

Yoren longshore wrote:Dragons aren't unstoppable, The storming of the dragonpit is a prime example. :;
):
Admittedly those were smaller and stuck, but still...

Indeed, and as I mentioned the Dornish took down Meraxes. It took a single Scorpion bolt to do so.

Yoren longshore wrote:Also, if either party sends their dragons to attack, then they will expose themselves to retaliation, so hopefully the war will be men engaging men, and on separate battlefields, dragons engaging dragons. I can at least hope :;
):

Historically that was only the case about half the time... and even then much of that was skirmishes before the war really started. Indeed, other than Aemond challenging Daemon, for the most part most of the dragon vs. dragon engagements took place in the presence of armies... usually because one side or the other was using a dragon to decimate the other side's army.

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