Re: Game Discussion

by **Yoren longshore** Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:22 pm

Well, the problem of committing a dragon is that your dragon will be weakened, and if the opposition sends a a dragon of their own, it will be rested and ready to fight. Keeping the dragons in reserve would ensure that you could decide which battles you'd want to parttake in. So I think that for the most parts the PCs won't need to worry about enemy dragons, unless you properly piss one off... And then it might even be to your advantage :;
):

by **Davain Bartheld** Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:19 pm

Well in the Greens and the Blacks I think there only three battle where dragons were used against ground forces: the siege of Grifftons Roost, the attack on the Three Sisters fleet, and the one were the dragon seeds and Jon Roxton die. Aemon does burn the Riverlands, but it doesn't say where. Honestly it all depends on how cruel Reader is feeling lol. By the way I just want to say Readers the best GM ever! *wink wink nudge nudge*

by **Ser Alfred Haigh** Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:41 pm

Never felt so good to be unlanded... Noooothing much to worry about ! Razz

by **Theomore Tullison** Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:45 pm

Besides you know..the prospects of having to put your life on the line for the whims of lordlings :;
):

by **Ser Alfred Haigh** Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:47 pm

Ehh, there always are some downsides, aren't there ? Comes with the job really Razz

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:34 pm

Yoren longshore wrote:Well, the problem of committing a dragon is that your dragon will be weakened, and if the opposition sends a a dragon of their own, it will be rested and ready to fight. Keeping the dragons in reserve would ensure that you could decide which battles you'd want to parttake in. So I think that for the most parts the PCs won't need to worry about enemy dragons, unless you properly piss one off... And then it might even be to your advantage :;
):

Well, that all depends - a tougher dragon can afford to be a bit less rested, and not all dragon battles are one-on-one. A solo dragon with an army can be a lure to draw out another dragon, at which point a second dragon from the first side launches from nearby, fully rested.

Further, dragons held in reserve at the cost of armies and castles is just bad strategy. Dragons alone won't win the war - that's why there's all this political build up. If dragons were the only thing that mattered, why bother raising armies in the first place? Even Aegon raised an army to conquer the 7K, and he wasn't even facing other dragons.

Davain Bartheld wrote:Well in the Greens and the Blacks I think there only three battle where dragons were used against ground forces: the siege of Grifftons Roost, the attack on the Three Sisters fleet, and the one were the dragon seeds and Jon Roxton die. Aemon does burn the Riverlands, but it doesn't say where. Honestly it all depends on how cruel Reader is feeling lol. By the way I just want to say Readers the best GM ever! *wink wink nudge nudge*

I'm pretty sure the dragons were used against non-dragon forces in other fights, too...
Caraxes against Harrenhal.
Caraxes at Burning Mill.
Meleys at Rook's Rest, (which drew out Sunfyre and Vhagar, turning into a dragon v. dragon fight - but it didn't start that way).

That's 3 before the first one you listed.

The battle of the Honeywine;
Rook's Rest again (notable as the army attacked the dragon);
Harrenhal again;
the fall of King's Landing;
Aemond torched Darry, Lord Harroway's Town, Lord's Mill, Blackbuckle, Buckle, Claypool, Swynford, Spiderwood, Stonyhead, the Mountains of the Moon, Sweetwillow, Sallydance, and more;
Daeron and Tessarion travelled with the Hightower army, driving off Black forces along the way, the First Battle of Tumbleton...

Still not to Roxton's death, but I think my point has been made. FAR more battles in which dragons fought ground/sea forces than battles in which they fought other dragons.

EDIT: Clarified last sentence.

by **Yoren longshore** Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:59 pm

Well, I don't think there's ever been a stealthy dragon, so presumably ambushes would be a rarity :;
): Furthermore: engaging a dragon in the field will allow counter attacks against cities ant the like. As I myself said, dragons aren't unbeatable, but fully commiting a dragon only ensures that the finely tuned balance between the parties are altered, and that against the agressors favour.

by **Baelon Drakeson** Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:15 am

Yoren longshore wrote:Well, I don't think there's ever been a stealthy dragon, so presumably ambushes would be a rarity :;
): Furthermore: engaging a dragon in the field will allow counter attacks against cities ant the like. As I myself said, dragons aren't unbeatable, but fully commiting a dragon only ensures that the finely tuned balance between the parties are altered, and that against the agressors favour.

I dunno about that. Aegon II's Sunfyre hid on Dragonstone, the heart of enemy territory for... weeks? Months? I'm not quite sure how long, but it was significant.
Not to mention Grey Ghost, who was noted for being quite elusive.

Beyond that, there's also the fact that dragons can move into the battlespace from quite a distance - and given the limitations on communications, a surprise attack can have more to do with lack of adequate information (fog of war) more than an ability to hide.

by **Yoren longshore** Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:37 am

Yes, poor communication would mean that a dragon could stay under the radar, but that same lack of communication will also make one of these long range ambushes impossible. To pull the ambush off they'd need to time the opposing dragons attack precisely: (before the bait is killed, but after the dragon took the bait) and how do you communicate that when you have to stay out of line of sight? Camo dragons would be hard to pull off too...

by **Baelon Drakeson** Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:53 am

Oh, that's easy.

Code:: Dragon Accomplice ---------------- Wall/Forest/Etc. ---------------- Target

The Accomplice can see the Target (using Fareyes if necessary), but the target can't see the Dragon &
Rider. And at a mile or so away, in a battle, it's unlikely that the Target would be unlikely to notice the Accomplice...

For that matter, the dragonrider can peek through an arrowslit in the wall or other small opening, and see just fine but still be completely hidden.
That's how a small camera can take a panoramic shot.

by **Yoren longshore** Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:10 am

But in this scenario the ambushers are the agressors. The hiding part means that it will take some time to arrange, and if discovered it can easily cost two dragons, and only kill a few smallfolk. I'm not saying that it's not viable, I just think that there's a lot of ifs needed to pull it off :;
):
Then again, unless I plan to do a Nettle, you would be the most likely dragonrider, so for my part this is pure conjecture, poor Yoren, unable to ride a weapon of mass destruction Sad

by **Baelon Drakeson** Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:50 am

I can get you a good deal on a wagon-full of wildfire.

No refunds for premature detonation, though.

by **Loreia** Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:18 am

The wiki page for the First Dornish War alludes that it was otherwise impossible to bring down Meraxes with a scorpion, calling it a "
lucky shot."
But it is an option, albeit probably not widely known. It was roughly a century ago.

by **Yoren longshore** Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:48 am

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(weapon)

if you look at it it looks quite nasty:) if anything could bring down a dragon, I'd trust that thing Twisted Evil

And the fact that it's very precise is also a great bit of news for any shit-scared militiamen...

by **Ayleth Bartheld** Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:26 am

Yeah, a siege weapon hitting a target that is not only moving but actually flying is quite unlikely. Anyways, siege weapons are usually not built until a siege begins (it being much easier to build them on site than lug them around the country) so most armies won't have them.
Scorpions are fairly obsolete by medieval times, since regular crossbows are much easier to use, cheaper, much more portable and easier to make, while other siege weapons can do far more damage to structures.

by **Septon Arlyn** Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:08 am

Best way to deal with a dragon is to not have to deal with one at all. The weakest link is the rider on its back, and then get the ****out. Because once a dragon loses its rider it becomes just as dangerous for the opponent's Arny as your own, leveling the playing field in that direction. Then you can have your archers focus fire on the dragons eyes once your out of range and pull a Billy shot

by **Kevan Lyras** Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:52 am

But Billy is dead!

Billy Burley, the prodigiously skilled bowman of House Burley and the champion of the archery contest has little time to enjoy his victory, stabbed in the confusion and robbed of his victory purse.

by **Reader** Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:49 pm

Kevan Lyras wrote:But Billy is dead!
Billy Burley, the prodigiously skilled bowman of House Burley and the champion of the archery contest has little time to enjoy his victory, stabbed in the confusion and robbed of his victory purse.

Well remembered! A man of high ability and low status, but enough to cause a serious diversion from canon. Sure various players can guess at likely consequences of Billy's absence.

Little things like this hopefully justify starting in 124.

by **Theomore Tullison** Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:13 pm

If only there were like an active PC bowman.....

by **Ser Alfred Haigh** Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:18 pm

Well, if theres no bowman, someone will have to run those 100 yards and take over the job. Lances / spears / pikes anyone ?

by **Theomore Tullison** Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:20 pm

I`ll run the other way and rely on there being slower less capable horsemen to attract it`s attention Razz

by **Reader** Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:43 pm

Theomore Tullison wrote:I`ll run the other way and rely on there being slower less capable horsemen to attract it`s attention

I was expecting Theomore to be involved, but at a respectable distance. :;
):

Albeit you can never be too careful with dragons. Several of you have seen their work up close.

by **Baelon Drakeson** Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:11 pm

What I like about starting in 124 is that we are establishing our connections to various players, and seriously shaping things to come. It makes it OUR war, and much easier to diverge from canon in big ways because we have already done it in small ways, and small things can snowball.

Reader wrote:
Theomore Tullison wrote:I`ll run the other way and rely on there being slower less capable horsemen to attract it`s attention

I was expecting Theomore to be involved, but at a respectable distance. :;
):

Albeit you can never be too careful with dragons. Several of you have seen their work up close.

Well, Theo has definitely seen Vhagar eating up close, at least. :;
):

by **Theomore Tullison** Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:32 pm

Theo has probably fed Caraxes too, with livestock mind.

by **Septon Arlyn** Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:42 pm

Kevan Lyras wrote:But Billy is dead!
Billy Burley, the prodigiously skilled bowman of House Burley and the champion of the archery contest has little time to enjoy his victory, stabbed in the confusion and robbed of his victory purse.

But quantity has a quality all of it's own. And we have a few troops of good archers. And even some horse archers, so that they can scatter after the shot and hopefully not end up as a bunch of charred remains Twisted Evil

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