Re: General Non-game Chat Thread

[Daveth Coldbrook]

A question that's been puzzling me for the yanks on the forum. Hopefully I won't offend anyone by asking:

So, as you may know, I just got back from my first trip to the USA. Boston -> New York -> Philadelphia -> Washington D.C. Now, I liked it a lot (except New York. None of us got on well with that city. Who builds an expensive hotel in the city centre, then puts in basically no sound insulation? A sadist? No, that's not the question).

It was interesting to see which of the stereotypes stood up to scrutiny, and which didn't. Some did - There was a certain Paul who was basically worshipped so much for the delivering of a single message that I literally had to look up and find out if he was the origin of the word 'Revere'. (He wasn't.) And some didn't - the only non-exhibit guns I noticed were around the Capitol building, White House, and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington cemetery, which was far less than I expected.

One of the reputations that stood up was the worship of the military, and, to a lesser extent, the emergency services. Lots of it, seemingly heartfelt.

And yet, according to Google (I read it on the internet, so it must be true), 20 veterans commit suicide every day (a disproportionately high number), and they are a disproportionate proportion of the homeless population. And I seem to recall hearing that the Department of Veteran's Affairs was hopelessly clogged.

Can anyone explain why there are not literal *riots* on the streets for the politicians to commit whatever resources are required to fix this (at least as far as is practical)?

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

My good news is that my remaining companion hedgehog has been declared healthy by the vet.

[Septon Arlyn]

A question that's been puzzling me for the yanks on the forum.  Hopefully I won't offend anyone by asking:

So, as you may know, I just got back from my first trip to the USA.  Boston -> New York -> Philadelphia -> Washington D.C.  Now, I liked it a lot (except New York.  None of us got on well with that city.  Who builds an expensive hotel in the city centre, then puts in basically no sound insulation?  A sadist?  No, that's not the question).

It was interesting to see which of the stereotypes stood up to scrutiny, and which didn't.  Some did - There was a certain Paul who was basically worshipped so much for the delivering of a single message that I literally had to look up and find out if he was the origin of the word 'Revere'.  (He wasn't.)  And some didn't - the only non-exhibit guns I noticed were around the Capitol building, White House, and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington cemetery, which was far less than I expected.

One of the reputations that stood up was the worship of the military, and, to a lesser extent, the emergency services.  Lots of it, seemingly heartfelt.

And yet, according to Google (I read it on the internet, so it must be true), 20 veterans commit suicide every day (a disproportionately high number), and they are a disproportionate proportion of the homeless population.  And I seem to recall hearing that the Department of Veteran's Affairs was hopelessly clogged.

Can anyone explain why there are not literal *riots* on the streets for the politicians to commit whatever resources are required to fix this (at least as far as is practical)?  

because republicans block veterans bills

but want to increase defence spending.

Because they want to create veterans, but not take care of them when they return

[Aerion Storm]

Hopefully nobody minds the new guy jumping in on this?  As a historian and a writer, it's kind of in my nature to chime in when I see a question like this.  I'm gonna try and stay non-partisan throughout, because I'm trying to explain the situation instead of point fingers.

Can anyone explain why there are not literal *riots* on the streets for the politicians to commit whatever resources are required to fix this (at least as far as is practical)?  

Because humans are very good at compartmentalizing.  We really adore anyone in a uniform -- professional athletes, policemen, firefighters, EMTs, soldiers, sailors, you name it -- but basically, as a society, only when they're in that uniform.  When they quit their job and come home again, we stop caring.  We've got an extreme effed-up view of poverty and mental health (both are seen as moral failings by great swathes of society, thanks in some part to the American worship of the Protestant work ethic, thanks in part to anti-Communism, pro-Capitalism, propaganda during the Cold War era, thanks in part to Reagan's resurgence of the Right's rhetoric), and when a serviceman comes home with PTSD that forces him to lose his job and his house, as a society, we don't care.  We'll unironically thank them for their service, and then we'll just wonder where they went wrong (when that service affects them mentally, or when they spent their young adult years as an enlisted man instead of learning how to invest money wisely) and step over them in the street.  

We sponsor wars because the military-industrial complex makes literal fortunes from them, and because of how lobbyists influence Washington.  I mean, sometimes we have really good reasons for our military to do stuff, don't get me wrong.  But sometimes we don't, and we send in the troops anyways.  We have a ridiculously bloated defense budget, because everyone involved in setting that budget gets to find ways to get rich off of it, so it stays bloated.  We love to make veterans, but we hate to "waste money on welfare" by taking care of them, later.

If someone's homeless, we don't think "oh that poor person," on a societal level (to our credit, on the individual level, a great many Americans are generous and loving and compassionate)...no, we think "man, what did they do to deserve that?  What a screw up they must be.  They should get their act together."  Our lawmakers don't think about how hard it is to get a job when you don't have a mailing address, how hard it is to sit through a job interview if you're hair's a mess and you don't have anyplace to shower, how difficult it is to get your life together when you don't know where your next meal is coming from.  In a great many cities, all the lawmakers -- influenced by local businesses -- think about is "man, we don't want our city to get a reputation for a bunch of bums," so you see citywide legislation that puts armrails in the middle of park benches (so you can't lay down across them), or puts great big concrete spikes on sidewalk alcoves (so you can't sit down there and take shelter from the wind).  You see city after city enacting legislature that's aimed only at making homeless people leave that particular city, instead of solving the issues that surround homelessness.  A great many cities have laws against feeding the homeless, even;  one friend of mine does volunteer work and they can only feed five homeless people at a time.  So their shelter got shut down (just like the city wanted, when they made that law), and now they're like a food truck, basically, but they have to always be very careful about how long their line is, or they'll get ticketed.

And this is all focusing on the easiest topic in the "homelessness, mental health, drug abuse" trinity.  Mental health is its own rant, and drug abuse -- which so often goes with the other two -- is, similarly, something I don't have time to get into here.

It's a mess.  We're a mess.  

I don't know if you caught any sporting events while you were here, or if you've at least seen a baseball game or something on tv, but especially our pre-game ceremonies and singing the anthem and all that?  I've got several veteran friends that were tapped to stand in uniform at halftime or to hold the flag prior to a game, and they hate it, because it's such a stark reminder of how messed up our society is.  For a few minutes everyone cheers and loves them and their crisp uniform, they're put on display and adored and thanked for their service;  then they get shuffled away as soon as the demonstration of patriotism is over (and one buddy literally didn't even get tickets to the game, he had to leave the stadium, albeit that's very rare and may've just been a screw up...but still).

So yeah.  There's no short and easy answer, I'm afraid, other than "lol cuz we're fucked up."

ETA: In lighter news, I'm glad to hear your hedgehog is okay, Corrine!  That's way more fun to think about then homeless vets.  

[Septon Arlyn]

Hopefully nobody minds the new guy jumping in on this?  ...snip  

not at all

So this is the long form answer, but not everyone in america just sits and does nothing, In fact in my home state we actually recently passed a law that had bipartisan support in oregon (a rarity in politics now a days) by my representative in the house. I know that I did some campaigning in particular for this bill and for Paul Evans (one of the co founders of this bill), even had the sign out in my yard and spoke to people about it lol

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Thanks, Critias! I had her checked up out of paranoia because my other hedgehog died suddenly last week.

And you & Arlyn have what I believe is largely the right of it when it comes to how veterans are grossly failed by a system that should take care of them.

[Aerion Storm]

Hopefully nobody minds the new guy jumping in on this?  ...snip  

not at all

So this is the long form answer, but not everyone in america just sits and does nothing, In fact in my home state we actually recently passed a law that had bipartisan support in oregon (a rarity in politics now a days) by my representative in the house. I know that I did some campaigning in particular for this bill and for Paul Evans (one of the co founders of this bill), even had the sign out in my yard and spoke to people about it lol

Yeah, Oregon's a neat state in a lot of ways (and that's one of them).  I don't want to make it sound like all Americans agree with all this;  on the individual level, lots of folks do what they can to help, lots of communities have great laws, laws of cops turn a blind eye to some of this legislation, etc, etc.  But on the societal level, we're kind of a mess where this is concerned.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

My good news is that my remaining companion hedgehog has been declared healthy by the vet.

Excellent. May the good news continue!

because republicans block veterans bills

but want to increase defence spending.

Because they want to create veterans, but not take care of them when they return

I'm familiar with how dysfunctional the American political system is. But however much they may *want* to continue doing this, no politician of any stripe would dare to continue if serious civil unrest resulted, which is why my question focused on the social side of things, rather than the political.

Because humans are very good at compartmentalizing. We really adore anyone in a uniform -- professional athletes, policemen, firefighters, EMTs, soldiers, sailors, you name it -- but basically, as a society, only when they're in that uniform.

Thank you for your very thorough answer. I think the sentence above is really the key part I was missing.

not everyone in america just sits and does nothing

And I didn't wish to imply otherwise. I just couldn't see the kind of *mass* movement that I would expect given the mentality on show. I certainly didn't mean to imply that *no-one* cared or did anything.

[Loreia]

Contrary to popular worldwide belief...we're not savages.

Not everyone knows this stuff, or bothers to look it up because it doesn't affect them. Sure there were protests at one point, but it's sad to say that there are a million-and-one things made purely to distract us in this day and age.

And I hope you're not advocating civil unrest, because when riots happen, nobody wins. Whatever gets broke just has to be repaired with more money, they might end up hurting or killing someone on either side or neither (see Black Friday, which isn't even a riot but may as well be one that doesn't involve property damage), and someone may lose their business overnight (see Iowa University's VEISHA parade, which is no longer a thing as of two years ago).

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I think he was advocating direct action, which is not inherently violent, i.e. peaceful protest, outreach, etc.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

I wasn't trying to *advocate* anything. It's not my culture, it's not my place to judge or advise. I was seeking understanding on an apparent contradiction only.

And yes, you should parse 'riot' in this context as 'angry yet non-violent protests', rather than 'looting, violence, etc.'. I chose that word to indicate the feelings of indignation, rather than physical acts of violence.

[Septon Arlyn]

Yeah, the coasts tend to be more on the liberal side of things (think califorina, oregon, washington, and newyork newyork) but the majority of rural Americans feel that they had things better then they used to (they did) but mis-attribute what the cause of the decline of the "middle class" (reganomics) and instead focus there anger on people below them. There was a really interesting article here about wealth. It is also one of the reasons I think there should be a mandatory 2 year enlistment for all socioeconomic classes, either in the military or in an organization like the red cross / peace corps as a way to "pay" for free or reduced college tuition.

I know It is a policy nightmare to try and get enacted, but I feel like it would do a lot to bring the wealthy and the poor to have a shared experience could build a lot of bridges across the economic ladder

[Septon Arlyn]

I wasn't trying to *advocate* anything.  It's not my culture, it's not my place to judge or advise.  I was seeking understanding on an apparent contradiction only.  

And yes, you should parse 'riot' in this context as 'angry yet non-violent protests', rather than 'looting, violence, etc.'.  I chose that word to indicate the feelings of indignation, rather than physical acts of violence.

there have been, but America is HUGE, compared to countries in Europe and getting permanent change passed takes an act of congress (literally) and when you have 50 states with different viewpoints and political bickering (unwillingness to cooperate with the other party)then it becomes a quagmire to get anything accomplished of note. I mean look at Obama, he has spent the last 8 years trying to negotiate with the republican party to get things passed that have bipartisan support and the only thing that he has accomplished is alienating the democratic base for not "getting enough done" or "pushing a socialist agenda" onto the republicans.

American politics really is a crap shoot. Has been throughout history.

[Nathaniel Mason]

Contrary to popular worldwide belief...we're not savages.

People are not savages, but as I look around the world, they do an awfully good impression of savages.

I am Canadian, and while we are not perfect by an stretch of the imagination, we tend towards peaceful, polite indignation rather than riots and water cannons. When the police overstepped their bounds during the G20 Summit protests in 2010, there was a swift, decisive, and very public investigation. When the police raided gay bathhouses in Toronto in 1981, the public outcry was so surprising and resounding it led directly to sexual orientation in being added to our Charter of Right and Freedoms in 1995.

Our only major civil war between Upper and Lower Canada involved fifteen minutes of fighting and three days of drinking. Personally, I think every major disagreement should be settled that way.

[Baelon Drakeson]

My good news is that my remaining companion hedgehog has been declared healthy by the vet.

Yay! Best news of the day.

A question that's been puzzling me for the yanks on the forum.  Hopefully I won't offend anyone by asking:

So, as you may know, I just got back from my first trip to the USA.  Boston -> New York -> Philadelphia -> Washington D.C.  Now, I liked it a lot (except New York.  None of us got on well with that city.  Who builds an expensive hotel in the city centre, then puts in basically no sound insulation?  A sadist?  No, that's not the question).

So, as a member of a military family, an (extended) family plagued by mental health and substance abuse issues, and someone who has watched more than one veteran give in to alcohol or depression and suicide... no offense taken. Not one bit. It's a huge problem, and huge problems never get better by being ignored.

As for your other question... actually, to a large extent the answer is the same: money. We, as a culture (again, not as individuals per se), are are organized around a single thing: money. It's not that money is the root of all our evil, it's that too often we are willing to turn a blind eye to evil - or even commit it - because it serves "the bottom line". military investment, as was stated, is profitable. Government operated veteran's care isn't. Similarly, if there are enough people who will stay at your hotel even without adequate sound proofing, why pay for it?

Additionally, there's a forest/trees distinction at work. When we meet somebody new, the first question is "What's your name", but the second is "What do you do?". We label people with names, but define them by employment. Critias was mostly right: when someone is in uniform, we adore them. Except it's not THEM we are adoring, it is the job by which we are defining them. It's actually more universal in our culture than the uniform-worship - there are many who have deep and abiding fear and distrust of police, in no small part due to the abuses some communities (usually the most vulnerable ones) have suffered by a few bad apples and damaged, uncaring, faceless systems. It is not the people who are distrusted and feared, it is the job. The same thing goes for any other definable group: immigrants, homeless, unemployed, steel workers, bankers, minorities, LGBTQ, straight, men, women, conservatives, liberals, whatever. We don't see people we see categories, and paint anyone a certain category with the same broad brush.

So back to the money. We, as a culture, are pretty good at helping people. We are not so good at helping categories. There is a reason that charities will often juxtapose anecdotes with their statistics. Tell a story about a young girl with cancer whose father was a policeman that died in the line of duty and dreams of going to college to become a doctor and save other kids like herself and boom, tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars can be raised overnight. Set up a general charity to help kids with cancer, and you might get that in a month. The one girl is a person, children with cancer are a category.

Applied to veterans: legislation to support vets is expensive, and vets are a category. It's easy to abstract away their suffering and pain, but it's hard to spend money on a mere category when you can instead cut taxes or tweak legislation to benefit a lobbyist and earn yourself a boatload of financial support for your re-election campaign. Especially given the scope. We have some 21 million vets in the US. Increase per-vet spending by even a hundred dollars (which to each individual veteran would be naught but a pittance) and that's over 2 billion dollars. It's a LOT of money, and while we are a very rich nation, that wealth is concentrated in the hands of just a few.

There have been protests, but on a national level they get shut down or ignored (see for instance the Occupy movement, Black Lives Matter, pride parades, etc.). There's a reason that our recent presidential election had such populist angst that in both major parties populists won or almost won the nomination. "Establishment" has become a dirty word.

Hopefully nobody minds the new guy jumping in on this?  As a historian and a writer, it's kind of in my nature to chime in when I see a question like this.  I'm gonna try and stay non-partisan throughout, because I'm trying to explain the situation instead of point fingers.
...
It's a mess.  We're a mess.

Well said. You put a lot of the sort of stuff I wanted to say into words, and quite a bit more eloquently. Also, you're not "the new guy", you're just a guy, with thoughts and feelings no more or less important than the rest of us.

[Loreia]

Okay, we're cool.

Black Lives Matter has kinda become a beast with two heads now. Exercise caution.

Contrary to popular worldwide belief...we're not savages.

People are not savages, but as I look around the world, they do an awfully good impression of savages.

I am Canadian, and while we are not perfect by an stretch of the imagination, we tend towards peaceful, polite indignation rather than riots and water cannons.  When the police overstepped their bounds during the G20 Summit protests in 2010, there was a swift, decisive, and very public investigation.  When the police raided gay bathhouses in Toronto in 1981, the public outcry was so surprising and resounding it led directly to sexual orientation in being added to our Charter of Right and Freedoms in 1995.

Our only major civil war between Upper and Lower Canada involved fifteen minutes of fighting and three days of drinking.  Personally, I think every major disagreement should be settled that way.

No doubt about it, Canadians are probably the nicest people in the world, so I've heard.

[Daveth Coldbrook]

Thanks for the thorough answers, all. Really helped get rid of my cognitive dissonance over the whole matter.

[Aerion Storm]

Thanks for the thorough answers, all.  Really helped get rid of my cognitive dissonance over the whole matter.

FWIW, it wasn't my intent to get rid of cognitive dissonance, so much as to say "Yeah, we're so fucked up, check out this dissonance." It's a mess, and I'm not in any way trying to excuse it, so much as throw my hands up into the air about it.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I thought I'd share some fun stuff:

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

lol, yeah...if explanations of United States politics reduces your cognitive dissonance, we're doing something wrong.

[Reader]

Sad news as Joe Dever (author of the Lone Wolf gamebooks) passed away today, according to one of the companies working with him (Cubicle 7 games). He leaves a splendid legacy in the worlds he created.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Fuck 2016 forever.

[Aerion Storm]

Yeah, I just heard. I don't look forward to whatever December's got in store, to try and keep the year's terribleness going.

[Darron Greyjoy]

Don't know who he is but I can agree on this year can fuck off to oblivion lol.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I think I need to go check if Tim Curry is ok.

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