Re: Fire and Brimstone D5 (OPEN to all Mid evening)

[Athelstan]

Athelstan stands and addresses the men "
Well men Yoren wants to know will you kneel to a weak man or a strong one?"


Letting the question sink but not waiting for an answer

"
Will you follow a man that worships the God of our thralls, a weak god, and one of the many gods that we reave on?"
Or an ironborn that worships the Drowned God?"


Drinking from the wineskin "
What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger. No foreign god may sit an ironborn seat"
quoting the Drowned God law by memory and words of worship, what do you answer to his questions?"


[ooc]I doubt I need this but just in case[/ooc]
Persuasion
[url=Persuasion][/url]: 3d6k3 12

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Gwyn waves the talk of rumors aside with a flap of her hand.

"
There's nothing smallfolk love more than jaw about some noble girl fallen into infamy,"
she says darkly. "
People who know better will look to your deeds, not the words of others, and they're the ones that matter most. But...what was this? You've made a deal with Yoren? About what? And what is the other one...Athelsten...talking about? Greenlander hypocrisy? He asked for trial by combat, and then yielded almost immediately! Not that I'm not appreciative, but how does that make anyone other than him a hypocrite?"

"
I know. He claims I forced him to yield by asking him not to kill Baelon if he won,"
Corrine replied, shaking her head in dismay. "
All Athelstans troubles are other people's fault, apparently. Nothing to do with him comitting murder."


She shrugs in resigned beeilderment.

"
As for Yoren, he offered us two units, for two months, to fight the clans;
one infantry, one bowmen, free of charge. They will be less well-trained, but his purpose is to have them gain experience. In exchange, he just wants friendship with House Marsten. I agreed, on the condition that neither he nor his men do anything to bring House Marsten into disrepute. He has assured me that his men will follow orders and be of use. If anyone from House Longshore causes trouble for us, it is written into our agreement that we may dismiss them immediately and withdraw our good faith."

Gwyneth absorbs that news, but doesn't respond right away.

"
I would have counseled against dealing with the ironborn at all,"
she said at last. "
Even if one of them seems well-spoken enough;
one man doesn't make up for a legion of maniacs."


As Yoren and Athelsten quarrel not far away, she nods towards the increasing racket.

"
See?"

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Corrine shrugs.

"
He has been warned that, if he can't control his men, the deal is off. I will be watching them closely."

[Yoren longshore]

(OOC sorry for long wait, as it was a roll, I did not know whether you wanted to wait for reader.)

Yoren mutters to himself as he gets to his feet can't this man gave five minutes without needing to be the center of attention?
Yoren rises, trying to avoid a potential volatile situation. "
Will you follow the man who is strong enough to choose his own path or the one that follows meekly in the trails from afore? The man who has travelled the world, gained experience, who will bring back our greatness from the days of Hoare, or the mediocre man, who has never gained experience, who only has dreams of keeping meekly to his traditions? The Longshore or the random lord whose abilities only extend to bragging?"
He asks them, putting on a show of joviallity, while showing Athelstan his displeasure in showing tension.

[Athelstan]

"
So the Old Ways are meekly, heard the man, you are all meek and weak, for not traveling for ten years to comeback a worse fighter than the youngsters and he says strong enough. Any of us could travel the world, but do not mock tradition and the Old Way to justify this strength of words, for we all already know you lack of it with the sword"


"
So are you men meek because you reave?"
pointing at random "
So you are weak because the Old Way according to Yoren means you are weak, since you didn't abandon your duties for a decade to travel and pass leisure time"
making mocking movement "
So now you are also all meek and weak, and only he is strong because of his travels, I think you are wrong Yoren, ask the men if they are meek and weak for following the Drowned God and ironorn traditions"


"
You men have no experience, those who have reave across most of the Free Cities are but babes and pale against the mighty powerful Yoren the Traveled, beaten by a woman and all but the youngest ironborn in combat, Lord Reaver of Landhold, that has much to brag about how strong he is to lead you the meek and weak, for holding to the Drowned God and the Old Way"
shaking his head and noting the tension in Yoren and anger of the men.

"
What say you, who is right then Yoren and his God that we prey upon, or the Drowned God and the ironbon way?"
most looks of anger at Yoren insults of the old way and the Drowned God, when they all know he is not strong of arms, but would make for a weak lord in war, with war in the horizon a poor choice, Athelstan new it, ironborn can taste it, its their trade to reave and war, it is the old way.

[Yoren longshore]

"
Any man that follows what others tell him without asking questions, is meek. Look at the greenlanders, what they do is meekly following their rules. We are a lot more free than that. What Athelstans words inevitably lead to is a question: are we simply like the Greenlanders, they simply follow what people tell them to. Are we no better than them? Athelstan seems to believe that we are no more than animals, that strength of arms is the only measurement of might.
I am not the greatest of fighters, but I stay by my words. I hold my words sacred, I fight with my people until the end, I bring about a better time for our house, if not through my strength then through my tenacity. Whereas others may challenge to a duel, only to give up after the first blow, some of us will fight to the end."

Yoren makes a sweeping gesture: "
Are you all looking for strength to lead you? I know that you are smarter than that. You follow Ferris, although he is not strong, because he is a good leader. That greenlander that beat Athelstan was a better fighter than Athelstan, I would still choose Athelstan to captain my ship before letting the greenlander take the command, regardless of who is the greatest fighter.
You want a leader that is not giving up, regardless of how rough things seem. You want a leader that knows the winds and knows how to navigate. You want a leader that is smart so that he'll lead you to riches. You do not want a leader that gives up after the first blow and whose biggest quality is his ability to swing an axe. Let me tell you: I don't give up, I fight no matter how rough the going seems, I will not follow blindly what people tell me, I will explore the world for my self. What parts us from greenlanders is exactly that: we do not blindly follow our lord, we also think for ourselves!"

[Septon Arlyn]

(Septon aryln walks down to the burning bonfire, hearing the last bit of yorens conversation.)

But meekness as you describe it, my good friend can also be seen as proprietary, just as we can not all be The Father there also must be the crofters, the Mother's and the Maiden's. Sometimes we must aknowledge our betters and realize that they do have a plan for us.

I am septon Aryln, and it is a pleasure to meet you.

[Athelstan]

"
Let us put it all in simpler terms since I think you lost some of the men with so many words"
some of the older ones laugh and younger ones look a bit grateful "
To lead men, they need to follow you and your orders, you need to be strong not just with words, but with your arm, lest someone challenge you and take your place as captain of your ship."
looking at the septon and nodding to him

"
War is an ironman's proper trade. The Drowned God has made us to reave, to carve out kingdoms and write their names in fire and blood and song"
crossing his arms "
Yet you speak of this freedom, but expect us to not fight back the shackles of change you bring with you and your fire god?"
some of the men nod "
I think you wish us to be as dumb as animal to not see what you are truly saying for those that can tell through the gibberish of words you spout! You sound more like a greenlander"


Opening his arms in an embracing gesture "
Ironborn are great for they are warriors that do not question their leaders Yoren, lest we then look like the greenlanders and their constant infighting, and while a leader must be cunning and smart, without skill at arms to back him up he will be meek and poor leader himself Yoren"
some nodding from the men "
Your concept of leader and strength comes from the Free Cities and sounds more like greenlanders do their business. Backdoor deals and treacherous, one moment they offer a deal then they break it and hide behind others or in a place they have majority to crush you."


Looking at Yoren "
The ironborn shall be waves. Not the great and lordly, but the simple folk. Then you expect us to be meek and weak and bow to your fire God and cast the Drowned God aside, you expect us to be meek and weak and do not question your leadership but accept it"
Athelstan makes a sweeping motion with his arm and pointing at Yoren in the end "
We are ironborn and we follow the Old Way which embodies the values of our people and its culture that you wish to trample upon and call us fools, weak and meek for it. A man's worth is judged primarily on his skill as a raider, disdain of jewelry and ornaments bought with coin. Ironborn wear no tokens unless they have paid the iron price. So your words of change that you expect us to take without question would be foolish, we carry traditions that we have fought hard to maintain, for you to come with pretty words and expect us to change, the sea has left you and so has the Drowned God. You will never rule Landhold and if by chance you happen to do it won't be for long since you are weak and meek, and we value the skill of a warrior and raider for that is the Old Way that is the ironborn way. The only thing that makes sense is that to lead you must be smart and cunning"
pointing no at the men "
So will you bee weak and meek and accept what he says like obedient dogs, like thralls! Wear the shackles of another God that you prey upon for being weak because he says so! Take him as your leader for he says so! Yet he says you should question your ways instead of his, HA! Yoren, you will never sit in Landhold and rule this House, remember Yoren, you are no longer a Drowned God follower, the laws do no longer apply to you..."

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Corrine shrugs.

"
He has been warned that, if he can't control his men, the deal is off. I will be watching them closely."

Gwyneth nodded, but was distracted from her response as a septon strolled up.

"
Oh, this should be good,"
she said with a grin. "
Lets go closer and watch."

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Corrine shrugs.

"
He has been warned that, if he can't control his men, the deal is off. I will be watching them closely."

Gwyneth nodded, but was distracted from her response as a septon strolled up.

"
Oh, this should be good,"
she said with a grin. "
Lets go closer and watch."

Corrine follows Gwyn's gaze, spotting the Septon.

"
Ooh, yes. I'm interested to see what a Septon's opinion is on this Lord of Light."


She sidles after Gwyn to watch.

[Yoren longshore]

Yoren shakes his head: "
you are afraid of my words so you try to tell your friends that I said something I did not: Who performs threachery now? I think it is you that is lying by atributing words to me I never said. Ironically enough, you do the thing you loathe to keep your men from heaeing my words. The septon agrees with you, so I will give you that: you think like a greenlander, for he clearly agrees with you. I hope that he is the only one here who does. I remember when I left, there were proper men. When in war they never went against orders, but it was acceptable to question orders after the fact, and then the captain needed a good explanation. What ship have you been on where martial prowess is all that matters? As I said, if martial prowess was all that was needed, Baelon would lead a warship before you."
Yoren shakes his head: "
Your words make no sense, ferris is lord, even though his brother is stronger. The reason is that Ferris is the one that has the biggest chance of making us prosper. Not for strength, but for intelligence."
Yoren shakes his head again: "
You try to lie to these people, telling them things I've never said. Then you have the audacity to question my motives of getting these people to ask questions, like they have allways done. I am the one that supports the old way here!"


OOC
maybe reader should tell the temperature of the crowd?

[Athelstan]

[ooc]I already sent a PM to Reader, I'm actually using your words against you and the Old Way as to were only skill at arms and raiding is what matters to determine who leads men or who men look up to as leaders, now let's hear the septon lol that should be funny.[/ooc]

[Septon Arlyn]

"
Ah yes, if we could all be lords of great strength and intelligence, just like I wish I could be the fastest and the fattest!"
Septon Arlyn remarks about his great weight. "
However I think you mistook me, not all men are great leaders, but that's because I have not yet told you what I believe makes a great leader."

"
Is it piety? Well certainly as a septon I would say that piety is important in determining ones godliness, but to only be pious leads to fanaticism, and from fanaticism breeds war, and war harms all and benefits few.
"
How about strength you say? Well surrounded by our gallant sers completing to be the best at the tourney I could see why would make that case, however the Ironborn and their drowned gods follow the iron price, meaning that they take what they want and spill the iron in your blood to get it. This also harms the weak and those whom need protection. Is this what the smallfolk in your lands need? to be enslaved by the powerful? Nay I tell you, their must be a better way
"
Cunning might be it? Sure cunning is important. You need to be smart enough to tell that chickens go in the hen house but not foxes eh? But If one is cunning as a fox and steals himself into the hen house and murders them to steal their eggs, is this what is needed or wanted? Do the good ladies and gentlemen think that lords taking as they want from the small folk to finance their extravagances is fair to the small folk?
"
So what may you ask do the seven think? Wisdom, I tell you. The wisdom to know your place in this world and temper your strengths. Should a peasant working in the fields be a suitable candidate to rule the seven kingdoms? Nay I say, they have their role to play but to rule would be foolish. How about the warlord that has killed all his enemies and had his soldiers rape and maim the smallfolk under his command? No I pray tell it would not. I wise leader, like whom yoren is referring, is better then simply a strong, or a smart, or a pious ruler. All three are important to rule I would say, but to judge a man or woman on those alone is a mistake. A wise ruler should be strong enough to protect his people, smart enough to let them prosper, pious enough to ensure the laws of god and men are followed but above all he should be wise enough to know the difference, like the father leading the seven.

[Athelstan]

"
We have no slaves septon that is against the law, our smallfolk are free to pray to the seven, and we only have one Drowned God and the Storm God"


Athelstan looks at the speton in disbelief "
We see it all the time, lords and knights breaking their smallfolk backs enjoying the fruit of their labors, Westros history of wars will tell you that most great armies pillage, rape and plunder their enemies villages as they go by, it is nothing new, yet they claim to be holier than thou"
shaking his head

"
I guess you are a greenlander Yoren, the septon agrees with you more than me"


Then turning back to the septon "
The difference dear septon is that we do not pretend we do not reave, like greenlander lords do, who worship the seven and use them at their leisure just like their sense of honor is only used at convenience, we do not do that fortunately. Your views are interesting and wisdom comes with experience, but like your seven from which you gather most of your words that you have read and are trained for this, we take our from the Drowned God and find what's important to the ironborn through them, like you do through the seven"
looking at the septon aahh the life of a recluse that gets to judge from afar, your view is eschewed by your gods and your life of leisure.

"
Septon Arlyn, while a wise ruler can bring many good things, if he does not have the strength to hold on to it, he will fall in do time and his work will be undone, if he does not have his belief to hold his might and piety to follow his convictions and those of his people, he will fall, if he is not smart and cunning to deal with the problems and warrior to fight for his people, then a wiseman that has nothing else is a doomed man, for he will fail, for he won't have the strength to fend off his aggressors, he will fail his people for believing something they do not, and hence lack the cunning to see the problems and enemies rising from within and without"
pointing the finger at the Septon "
War is the ironborn trade septon that if a fact, and it won't change anytime soon, but trying to hide the fight that those that worship the seven are any better, because they hide behind their lordships and their faith that deems it worth it is just being a hypocrite. You think when the armies sack an enemy village and destroy their crops, butcher their smallfolk, rape their woman as they do war is any different then because they just have to say if I win the seven say I'm right?"

[Reader]

[Religious types - feel free to contest Yoren's Persuasion (12) roll with your own speech ]

[Yoren longshore]

[Religious types - feel free to contest Yoren's Persuasion (12) roll with your own speech ]

OOC
I have not made a peesuasion roll, Athelstan did...

[Reader]

[Religious types - feel free to contest Yoren's Persuasion (12) roll with your own speech ]

OOC
I have not made a peesuasion roll, Athelstan did...

[OOC:, uh, yeah, meant Athelstan ]

[Yoren longshore]

[url=convince the heretics!!!!][/url]: 4d6k3 14

(May spend DP, depending on the septons roll...)

[Septon Arlyn]

"
We have no slaves septon that is against the law, our smallfolk are free to pray to the seven, and we only have one Drowned God and the Storm God"


Athelstan looks at the speton in disbelief "
We see it all the time, lords and knights breaking their smallfolk backs enjoying the fruit of their labors, Westros history of wars will tell you that most great armies pillage, rape and plunder their enemies villages as they go by, it is nothing new, yet they claim to be holier than thou"
shaking his head

"
I guess you are a greenlander Yoren, the septon agrees with you more than me"


Then turning back to the septon "
The difference dear septon is that we do not pretend we do not reave, like greenlander lords do, who worship the seven and use them at their leisure just like their sense of honor is only used at convenience, we do not do that fortunately. Your views are interesting and wisdom comes with experience, but like your seven from which you gather most of your words that you have read and are trained for this, we take our from the Drowned God and find what's important to the ironborn through them, like you do through the seven"
looking at the septon aahh the life of a recluse that gets to judge from afar, your view is eschewed by your gods and your life of leisure.

"
Septon Arlyn, while a wise ruler can bring many good things, if he does not have the strength to hold on to it, he will fall in do time and his work will be undone, if he does not have his belief to hold his might and piety to follow his convictions and those of his people, he will fall, if he is not smart and cunning to deal with the problems and warrior to fight for his people, then a wiseman that has nothing else is a doomed man, for he will fail, for he won't have the strength to fend off his aggressors, he will fail his people for believing something they do not, and hence lack the cunning to see the problems and enemies rising from within and without"
pointing the finger at the Septon "
War is the ironborn trade septon that if a fact, and it won't change anytime soon, but trying to hide the fight that those that worship the seven are any better, because they hide behind their lordships and their faith that deems it worth it is just being a hypocrite. You think when the armies sack an enemy village and destroy their crops, butcher their smallfolk, rape their woman as they do war is any different then because they just have to say if I win the seven say I'm right?"

"
Yes my lord, you may not have slaves, but are you telling me your thralls are treated much better then the slaves from across the sea?"


"
Ah my dear brother Athelstan, you mistake me, just because a man is wise, this does not make him weak, Take, for example, the seven. The father rules over all correct? He rules because of his great wisdom, however that is why he surrounds himself with great advisors and has the scales of justice. The mother however helps him in dealing with the nurturing of the people. These Greenlander lords, as you call them, who break the backs of their people trying to get what little gains they can from them, are not being the nurturing parent they should be. I have walked among the small folk as a begging brother, I have felt their toils and the hardships that some lords have but their smallfolk under, I've felt the stab of hunger and felt the blisters turn to callouses under blisters on my palms, I know I do not look it with my prodigious girth now but this is because my lords people have been generous and kind with sharing what they can with me, just as I have done my best to support them. As for the history of rape and pillaging during the history of westerous for that I truly morn, for every rape there is someone whom the maiden must morn, for every farm ransacked their becomes a hungry family who must trust in the warrior and the stranger to find peace. Is this what you want for your people, Imagine if that was your family whom was accosted by viscous men."


The septon looks down at seemingly in contemplation and makes the sign of the seven pointed star over his chest.

"
No family deserves that pain, and that is why a wise ruler surrounds himself with people whom can help him protect his lands and his people. As the father has the warrior to support him in his trials of warfare so should ever wise ruler have someone to support them repeal raiders or those whom would take his lands.

Those whom worship the seven are not perfect, as you have pointed out yourself. What we hope that we can do though is help settle issues without having to draw the sword. Men's tempers can run high and it has been my experience that barring steel only escalates the risk of death or dismemberment of one party involved, instead of seeing a peaceful conclusion to a situation. Peace I believe is ultimately more prosperous then war"

[Septon Arlyn]

OOC: Should we be rolling convince or charm?

[url=Charm the false believers][/url]: 6d6k5 21

[url=convince the non believers][/url]: 5d6 13

[Athelstan]

"
I am no lord Septon just Athelstan, and yes our thralls are as free as any smallfolk by law, I suppose you did not know this, the difference is that those born of thralls are considered ironborn and are treated as such, same for the children of our smallfolk, they are considered to be ironborn for they were born under an ironborn House"


"
Yes peace is a noble notion, but that is why we are not accosted by vicious men, for we are strong that our smallfolk and thralls can depend on us for protection, their children sail with us and bring money to their homes by trade or war, they can also become captains of their own ships, and take the handle of their lives like may ironborn do. I do not see that of greelanders smallfolk, they are more like slaves, then there are other septons that sanctify this actions of war you feel so appalled for"
mocking gestures "
Please septon, that is the life and the times we live in and people make the best of it how they can, but we are not of the seven we are of the Drowned God and while ironborn lords like 'The Longshore' he is advised by the captains of his fleet and the commanders of their soldiers, while perhaps listening to a wife in the bedchamber"


"
While I see merit in your comparison, we are of different cultures Septon and we won't meet in the eye in great many things, but it does not mean we cannot learn from each other, will you stay for the Feast soon after we set things are brought in to celebrate my victories in the joust?"

[Septon Arlyn]

certainly I will. I'm never one to turn down an opportunity to learn

[Yoren longshore]

"
The more experienced of the men here knows the benefits of peace, for they have seen both peace and war. Peace is little more than the lack of war."

You may say what you will of iron born, but they are not wordy men. More and more leaves as the speaking continues.

OOC
maybe we should assume that we continue speaking, but cut the scene, it is day 6 now after all...
Septon: I believe that you may choose between charm and convince. Convince is the one where you make people see eye to eye with you, while charm makes them like you, but not necessarily agree .

[Septon Arlyn]

OOC ok then it will be the convince roll

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