Re: General OOC Chatter Thread

by **Loreia** Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:54 am

Alright. I won't begrudge you for being in character, there's no player enmity. But you should know that attacking him for it that would provoke challenge from Loreia, and the amount of witnesses to the attack would ensure that she finds and confronts you about it. Are you okay with this?

by **Benedict Marsten** Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:35 am

Most certainly ok with it. I had assumed there would be some backlash. Ben has been low key thus far. I had to stir up some trouble for him. There is no story without conflict.

by **Lady Corrine Marsten** Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:58 am

Benedict Blackthorne wrote:Most certainly ok with it. I had assumed there would be some backlash. Ben has been low key thus far. I had to stir up some trouble for him. There is no story without conflict.

Damn, Corrine likes Loreia. It's fun trouble, but if Ben had challenged Garrett formally (which he'd be within his rights to do, given Garrett's leering), Corrine wouldn't feel any conflict about a duel. Now she can't be his second, bringing a bow to a swordfight, hehe. Razz

She wouldn't actually do that, but the first point stands. Laughing

by **Reader** Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:20 am

Exactly the kind of thing I'm after - IC conflict for sensible reasons (at least by Westeros logic!).

Provoke each other in to future enmity or duels of honour (latter can be to first injury/yield or whatever consequence you lot like, not everything has to be fatal!).

by **Lady Corrine Marsten** Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:44 am

Reader wrote:Exactly the kind of thing I'm after - IC conflict for sensible reasons (at least by Westeros logic!).

Provoke each other in to future enmity or duels of honour (latter can be to first injury/yield or whatever consequence you lot like, not everything has to be fatal!).

I do like the promise of drama. Smile

by **Loreia** Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:14 am

Actually, I'm hoping to show up at the sept sometime while Arlyn's treating Alys or Corrine. Or, if time slot will allow, after Arlyn's made the original healing checks for both this time slot, so that he can include himself at the scene to comment if he would like to.

by **Lady Corrine Marsten** Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:22 am

Sounds good!

by **Baelon Drakeson** Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:12 pm

Loreia Merrgal wrote:Actually, I'm hoping to show up at the sept sometime while Arlyn's treating Alys or Corrine. Or, if time slot will allow, after Arlyn's made the original healing checks for both this time slot, so that he can include himself at the scene to comment if he would like to.

Technically the healing tests happen the next day - usually it won't matter much, but it can make a difference in regard to what penalties apply - an exhausted healer can rest off some fatigue, but if someone beats up your healer there might be more penalties.... and given the current state of affairs, either of those could happen. Shocked

by **Septon Arlyn** Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:40 pm

Loreia Merrgal wrote:Actually, I'm hoping to show up at the sept sometime while Arlyn's treating Alys or Corrine. Or, if time slot will allow, after Arlyn's made the original healing checks for both this time slot, so that he can include himself at the scene to comment if he would like to.

That actually sounds quite good. I think that we have met each other breifly through degrees but it will be interesting to see how the Septon reacts to loreia's demand for confrontation against ben

by **Yoren longshore** Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:19 pm

Daveth Coldbrook wrote: "
Of course, I'm Black, so it's up to you if you believe me or not."

How will Nathan deal with Daveth drawing the race card! :;
):

by **Theomore Tullison** Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:26 pm

So, a little commentary prompted from:

viewtopic.php?f=85&
t=1227#p30399

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:Daveth's mouth quirks into a small smile at Nathan's last line. "
Yes, I imagine they might indeed notice."
he replies, dryly.

(OOC: Phew! I hope that's all factually correct. Anything there that's a 'lie' is actually a 'mistake' - let me know, and I'll correct.)

Factually correctness is a bit of a gray area. One thing is law/custom, facts on the ground is quite another.

House Targaryen having their own rules: true, true and true.

Great council of 101 set a precedent in the eyes of the greens that a male is preferred over a female and a male line is preferred over a female line. In the eyes of the black, though, the great council simply elected Viserys to be the next prince of dragonstone. Daveth gets correctness points.

Now, where I think him wrong: lords doesn't have the right to pick their heir. Sons comes first in the order of birth, then daughters, then brothers, then sisters. Children of them enters the order of succession directly after their parent in same fashion. If there are no trueborn heir, then the liege lord has the right of picking whoever takes over as lord. For the specific example of Coldbrooks, this is probably just the Starks being happy to name whoever Tomas asks them to name. Should however, the king stamp his seal on a piece of paper legitimizing Garret, then Garret is the heir, done and shut. With a certain grey area should another trueborn heir come along*. Another gray area is if a bastard has the right of inheritance in the absence of any trueborn claimants.

That's as far as the rights and so goes. But this is Westeros, a right can be worth no more than some piece of paper saying this and that in the hands of Cersei Lannister when the goldcloaks happens to be turncloaks. Randyll Tarly solves his issue by having Sam "
volunteer"
for the wall. On the other hand, Tywin Lannister can pick someone else than Tyrion to succeed him at Casterly Rock, because he's Tywin Lannister. Gray areas is a lot more about facts on the ground. A bastard that the lord grooms to be his heir, gets to act as heir, and so on, will likely have little trouble enforcing his claim. While a bastard that was packed off to someplace else as to not insult the lord's wife, and is basically a total stranger to his father's domains probably will need to be in good standing with the liege lord or someone else with clout.

*It's been hinted at in a Theon scene that Roose expects that if he and fat Walda gets a son, Ramsay will probably kill him, implying that a trueborn son comes before a legitimized natural born son.

by **Daveth Coldbrook** Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:10 pm

Ah. Interesting. I based that on [url=here][/url] which states:

A lord may lay out specific terms for inheritance or pass over their offspring in his will, which may invite legal wrangling after their death, and potentially violence during it. For instance, Lord Tywin Lannister wants his elder son, Ser Jaime, to be his heir to Casterly Rock and refuses to acknowledge the claim of his younger son, Tyrion, despite custom disqualifying Jaime as a member of the Kingsguard. If a lord's heir is a daughter without a husband, he might specify that she must wed by a certain time or the inheritance will pass to a cousin.

Which seems to cite as its source 'The Sworn Sword', page 123, which I don't have, so can't check.

by **Theomore Tullison** Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:51 pm

Look up Rohanne Webber on the wiki if you don't mind spoilers.

The best source on this matter is this one though: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P210/

look for hornwood inheritance.

by **Reader** Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:54 pm

Essentially, you're both right. Certainly not the first time that "
So Spake Martin"
link has been posted and won't be the last.

Legal precedent, politics and (if necessary) force of arms settles matters of inheritance.

Makes for better drama too. Twisted Evil

"
The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws. You could even make a case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power. In a tangle like the Hornwood case, ultimately the lord would decide... and if some of the more powerful claimants did not like the decision, it might come down to force of arms.

The bottom line, I suppose, is that inheritance was decided as much by politics as by laws. In Westeros and in medieval Europe both.

by **Daveth Coldbrook** Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:10 pm

Okay, I've edited that statement to include an 'ambiguity clause', which I'm hoping moves it into being more accurate. As you say, significant grey areas.

Still, thanks for the help.

by **Theomore Tullison** Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:11 pm

It's a far stretch to say that a lord has the right of it though, in 99 out of 100 cases where there exist a son, the firstborn becomes lord, whether daddy is happy about it or not. If there is no son, then it often comes down to whoever can put the most power behind the claim, and that may well be someone else than the late lord had intended. In the Rohanne Webber case, she probably could have done the Cersei Lannister routine if it wasn't for the castellan.

by **Gwyneth Drakeson** Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:12 pm

A feudal system of governance is little more than a thin veneer of civility plastered over the constant threat of armed retribution. Successive iterations of it layered on more and more layers of civility, until it was supplanted, by inches at a time, with more modern contrivances such as representative democracies and so on.

Under 'dark ages' style medieval feudalism, laws were only ever as binding as the issuing party's standing army could make them.

Game of Thrones isn't quite THAT dark, but it's not more than a stone's toss away.

by **Daveth Coldbrook** Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:22 pm

The way I'm reading it, the Lord has the right to name their successor if there's ambiguity, which the named successor can use to gain more military power from their 'legitimacy', but who will actually be heir depends on the military power each claimant has backing them at the end of the day.

Daveth is making an argument from the 'things *should* work this way' playbook, rather than a 'things *do* work this way', effectively. Since admitting bare-faced to a commoner that nobles are a bunch of children who can't agree to anything without threats of violence is a complete no-no, and rather undermines his point. Laughing

by **Theomore Tullison** Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:34 pm

Actually, Gwyn, it's fairly accurate. But let me amend your statement:

Under 'game of thrones' style medieval feudalism, laws are only ever as binding as the army of whoever has an interest in sticking to them can enforce.

As for ambiguity, nah, the lord doesn't have a "
right"
per se, rights follows inheritance rules, so it's basically the right of claimants. That isn't to say that a lord can't name his heir and ensure that his choice will succeed him. But it's a case of Garret's right by dint of being an acknowledged bastard, versus the right of Lord Stark as the Coldbrook liege to have a say versus the right of whoever Lord Coldbrook chooses based on being Lord Coldbrooks choice...alternatively by right of Lady Coldbrook to inherit from her husband and pass it on to her son. If Tomas were to select Daveth now, and get everyone in the household to support him (and remove the naysayers), then that's how it will be, most likely. If Tomas were to select Daveth now, and then get thrown off his horse and break his neck on the way home, and Garret decides he wants to be lord...Tomas selecting Daveth might be a worthless piece of paper.

by **Loreia** Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:12 pm

viewtopic.php?f=73&
t=1191

About your thread name for watching the melee on day 7: it's on day 8, peoples! Slight error, minimal panic.

by **Loreia** Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:08 am

viewtopic.php?f=65&
t=949&
start=10#p30323

Corrine Marsten - Bean's disposition towards Loreia improves by one step - the pair of you sense a rift among House Tully's guardsmen, in amongst his endless prattle about different types of crossbows.

Money problems, guardsmen spread thin, the embezzler(solved), and this too? Oh, well what isn't going wrong? Did we just come at a bad time, or is Lord Gorman wallowing in neglect?

by **Lady Corrine Marsten** Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:04 am

Loreia Merrgal wrote:http://dragonsdance.forumatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=73&
t=1191

About your thread name for watching the melee on day 7: it's on day 8, peoples! Slight error, minimal panic.

So it is! Jeezo, Ben! Razz

by Derrock Swann Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:14 am

[size=150:1w2hw5qb]So...

"
Who's this? Someone playing Ser Derrock? I thought he was a premade NPC? I'm sure I can find him in the books here somewhere..."

Silliness aside, someone seeing my post could, and should, be wondering what I am even doing here. To which I must say... I was never truly gone. It was all merely a setback!

I do apologize for my absence - even before I was, seemingly, completely gone, I still disappeared for two weeks entirely, to create a single post, and then be gone again. I sort of... got caught in other things, and completely forgot about this. My memory is somewhat dimmed with age, just like Derrock's, I fear... still, he is a character I enjoyed creating, based on another character I've been playing in multiple RPGs for decades (a paladin, and he wasn't old the first time I filled his sheet), and the back of my mind suddenly urged me to come and check on things. Woe to the unused character whose player leaves and is forgotten - it seems my jouster is doing better without me than he was in my presence!

If you'll allow my return, I'd like to pick up on things from here. Sorry to the PMs I left unanswered and which are now irrelevant - looking at you, Ser Theomore. Everything that has been done so far was completely in character for me - I especially liked the passing of the Queen of Love and Beauty's crowning to Ser Kevan. I wouldn't have thought of that, and it was remarkably fitting and entertaining.

I'd also be incredibly happy if someone wanted to meet me or have some sort of interaction. It has been lonely so far, just pointing lances at people and waving at crowds.

And if that settles matters, I got to start calculating my ransoms. Allow this old man to indulge in some capitalism. Very Happy

by **Septon Arlyn** Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:42 am

I would love to meet you. You could join us in watching the melee thread. Having taken the joust it would be reasonable to watch the melee event and give your opinions on knighthood

by Derrock Swann Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:49 am

Sounds like a plan, septon. What else would I be doing during the melee, if not watching?

by Sponsored content

General Non-game Chat Thread