Re: General OOC Chatter Thread

[Septon Arlyn]

Yeah, but I'm appealing to the nonrational side of people, I'm sure the majority of nobles have already made an assumption, one way or the other, about his actual guilt. Hence the joys of manipulating peoples emotions. The idea of innocent until proven guilty works in the legal system, but in the world of PR? Evil Chuckle

[Yoren longshore]

True :;
):
Just thought that as a septon, it would be bad if he now wins, and is proven innocent. However, he is facing PC, so it's only a theoretical risk.

[Septon Arlyn]

Yes that is true, but the Septon Arlyn has already threw his support behind the champion who will stand against Ser Benjen, This is just adding fuel to the fire. Also the Septon has a deep love of the Small folk and a deep hatred of those who have taken vows to the seven and then forsake them in such a horrible manner. I feel that its pretty in character of him to defend the honor of those who can not defend themselves, even if it does put him in an awkward position if Ser Benjen wins

[Baelon Drakeson]

I once had a professor point out that if you see 'clearly', 'of course', 'everyone knows', 'it must be the case that', etc. that the person probably doesn't actually have a good argument for what they are saying...

Which I suppose isn't too surprising given the state of forensic science in Westeros... unless someone literally gets caught red handed there's really not much hard evidence to be found. It all comes down to who you believe (which science tells us rarely has much to do with who is telling the truth).

[Septon Arlyn]

Which again goes towards PR. Think about the first trial of Tyron at the moon door. It was a forgone conclusion of those at the trial that Tyron was guilty of the attempted assassination of Brain. Even though he was innocent. Trial by combat that Bron won caused some doubt to be cast on wether he was guilty or not, but most still harbored the thought that he was guilty.
In the second trial he was also innocent, but his sister was convinced of his guilt and after his trial everyone thought that he was guilty as well. At the trial by combat he was proven guilty even though he was innocent. PR has a huge effect on guilt in westeros, I'm just hoping to push that needle even further in the direction of peoples ideas about Ser Benjens Guilt.

[Septon Arlyn]

I think Nathan sums it up nicely right here, Septon Arlyn has been manipulated into defending this young girls honor. Right now he is just a puppet on a string. Unknown supporting pawn but a pawn none the less

Nathan sat at the back of the Hall, suppressing a slight yawn as the rest of the room gasped.

Knowing what many of them did in private at night, their moral shock and surprise was the height of hypocrisy.

There was no trial here, simply a bit of theatre. Masha's testimony was all but useless. The Knight was not much better. Perhaps if he had gone to the stables when he first heard the screams his testimony might be of some value. Anointed Knight or no, the man was a coward, and Nathan had little use for cowards.

It was likely the girl was raped, but in the end it was the word of a serving girl against that of a respected (or at least feared) Knight. The only other two witnesses (who actually witnessed nothing) admit that the encounter may have been consensual.

More of interest to Nathan was to see how Lord Tully would rule.

As someone who had been raped many times in his life, Nathan did have a degree of morbid curiosity about the whole affair. No-one had certainly gone to this much effort for him. He wondered how much of it was for Brenna's welfare, and how much was for reasons that had nothing to do with Brenna.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Which again goes towards PR. Think about the first trial of Tyron at the moon door. It was a forgone conclusion of those at the trial that Tyron was guilty of the attempted assassination of Brain. Even though he was innocent. Trial by combat that Bron won caused some doubt to be cast on wether he was guilty or not, but most still harbored the thought that he was guilty.
In the second trial he was also innocent, but his sister was convinced of his guilt and after his trial everyone thought that he was guilty as well. At the trial by combat he was proven guilty even though he was innocent. PR has a huge effect on guilt in westeros, I'm just hoping to push that needle even further in the direction of peoples ideas about Ser Benjens Guilt.

Or rather, PR has much to do with perceptions of guilt. That is the same between Westeros and our world.
The difference is that in our world there is forensic science that can contradict the PR, so i our world PR has less of an effect on verdicts.
Verdicts in Westeros are almost entirely based on PR.

That is one of the many harsh realities of a much romanticized time period that Martin is so brilliant at bringing to the fore. I'm glad such things are a part of this game, too. It would not be nearly as much fun if it were all shining knights and swooning damsels.

[Septon Arlyn]

Yep. Although I am quite interested to see what Theomores plans are. I feel like this is just a stepping stone for him. that he was something bigger planed for the future.

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

I'm surprised we haven't seen a Westerosi Cadfael yet.

[Septon Arlyn]

Well I did not know that had a name but that is actually kind of the premise I was going with behind my character concept. Just minus the investigative and fighter parts. I'm not that well rounded lol

[Yoren longshore]

But really, even in modern times this crime would be brought to an unsatisfactory end. We would be certain that Frey got punished, but isn't Theomore and Raff just as guilty in goading him to do it? Or is he a hidden hero, unveiling Frey as a man who might have ravaged someone another time, but now he is to be tried for the crime? On the other hand, Theo made the woman get raped, is that excusable even to unveil something worse?

Idk I just had to get it out of my system

[Septon Arlyn]

There are many unkowns for sure. But just because theo goaded him into it but he might just have easily already had designs to that poor soul. Overall I think that it simply boils down to one thing. NO MEANS NO. consent is not a fuzzy thing that most people seem to think it is. If she told him no then that's the end of the story. he raped her. at least she will be getting a closer thing to justice then what most people get, unfortunately even in our modern society.

[Yoren longshore]

Not certain of that, no means no, but as a society can we put all blame on the rapist? Something has to be wrong with the guy, and is killing him then the right thing? Would you kill Lennie in of mice and men? He did a horrible crime, this boils down to the same thing, although frey is a lot harder to feel sympathy for.
It is also a question of will he get punished? He is probably a main npc, meaning full stat block, he hasn't been in the melee, unlike his contester, which is a great advantage. And if he wins, it'll tell him that he is above the law, if not the famed Derroch Swann can kill him, who can?
A modern society would put him in a psychiatric ward untill he improved. I don't know what is the moral choice...

[Septon Arlyn]

Yeah I believe we can put all the blame on the rapist. I am sure there might be some people who want to be raped out there but that is not the truth for what I would say is the majority of people. I know I do not want to be raped and I'm not sure why anyone would want that. But blaming the victim for "
asking for it"
is a sick joke. I feel that rape is a crime that there is a clear victim and a clear perpetrator.

As for killing him being an appropriate punishment? I do not have a good answer for that. I feel like there may be a better punishment. Maybe a lifetime of indentured servitude? Castration? I think that he has been in the Melee though, at least according to the rumors.

[Yoren longshore]

It's not to put the blame on the rape victim, the question is whether or not he has the full blame. If you take Lennie as an example. Do you believe that he should be kIlled, why/why not?
If a man commits arson, but is goaded into it by another man, is he fully to blame? Is not part of the blame with the man who goaded him into burning the building down?
How much can we blame the perpetrator of a crime?
if circumstances were altered, could not we be the perpetrator?
My bad if he was in the melee, I have not read all posts

[Septon Arlyn]

Lennie is a bad example of what occored here though. Lennie had a mental deficit that that makes him unable to reason or give consent or really be his own guardian. In game terms he would have a cunning of 1. I do not think that the Frey has any mental deficiencies of that nature. In legal terms he would be tried as an adult, so special circumstances for him. I think a more appropriate trial would be the OJ Simpson trial where he got off an a technicality

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Wow. I can't believe anyone is even debating this. Being goaded is no excuse for raping someone. Benjen Frey could easily have chosen not to rape that girl, regardless of the circumstances. It's as simple as this: rapists choose to rape. The comparison to Lenny from Of Mice and Men is a fallacy, as Benjen, unlike Lenny, has full command of his mental and physical faculties, the ability to be malicious, and knowingly committed a crime that his victim has to live through and remember for the rest of her life, unlike Curly's wife, who was killed wholly by accident, as a result of an innocent mistake, and was not sexually assaulted.

[Yoren longshore]

Again, I'm not saying anything about him being innocent, but it's a deeper question. Lennie had a mental deficit, that's for sure. But I think that it's more nuanced in this case. Benjen is clearly not "
all there"
, but where is the line drawn? A man suffering from schizophrenia, would he be tried in a normal fashion? How about a heavy drug user? What is the purpose of a justice system. Rehabilitation or punishment?
Can we really blame a single person foe a crime. Under different circumstances, couldn't we find ourselves in that same situation?
The coin always has two sides, if you look. Which returns to my original question: should Theo be lauded as a hero, or scorned for the means he used to get it?

[Lady Corrine Marsten]

Can we really blame a single person foe a crime.

In the case of rape, yes, we absolutely can.

Under different circumstances, couldn't we find ourselves in that same situation?

Fuck no. I sincerely hope that nobody here could even countenance committing rape.

[Yoren longshore]

Ok, let's not look at rape, as it is a crime people feel vehemently against. Any crime has the same "
structure"
if you will: a hurt party and a party looking for (percieved) gain. This does not need to be physical, but it often is. I remember visiting The ivory coast. There a friend of mine got pick pocketed. Now, given the right circumstances I might have had to pickpocket to get by. Is it then entirely my fault? If I had been born into poverty and not in Norway, it is not that big of a stretch that I could do crimes. Rape has a lot in common with these sorts of crime, but there is a few major differences: it hurts on a deeper level (money you can get by working overtime, trauma is a different beast) and there is no apparent gain (physical gain that is). However rapists does that for many reasons, but a common theme is empowerment. They feel empowered by it, much like violent crime (beating someone up) it is due to an empowerment they lack in day to day life. My question is, could somebody with their heads in the right place do such actions? If not, is treatment not the better option?

[Baelon Drakeson]

What it comes down to, in my opinion (and this is an actively debated topic in ethics circles, one of my classmates is writing his thesis on the moral blameworthiness of undiagnosed psychopaths) is that we are all products of our biology and environment.

It is not that Benjen Frey isn't responsible for his actions, but it is important to recognize that he isn't the only one responsible.

From a narrow scope perspective, we have a perpetrator and a victim (Benjen;
Brenna)
From a slightly larger perspective, we have a perpetrator, two influenced perpetrators, and a victim (Theo;
Raff and Benjen;
Brenna)
From a yet larger perspective, we have hundreds of perpetrators, three influenced perpretrators, and a victim (Westerosi society, Theo, Raff, and Benjen;
Brenna)

That's right, anyone who has fought or argued for the Westerosi way of life, for the rights of one noble over another, or even just benefited from being a noble or having noble patronage - we all share some portion of the responsibility. Baelon, Nathan, Yoren, even Corrine and Septon Arlyn.

Certainly, Benjen has the highest degree of responsibility, for having actually committed the act. But to punish him and him alone, then walk away feeling like we did a good thing... that's just self-deluding ignorance.
Benjen is a victim here, too. Not to the extent of Brenna, of course, nor to the point of obviating his guilt. He is guilty and should be punished.... but so should Theo, Raff, and the rest of us, each to the degree that we were involved. How involved were Baelon, Nathan, Yoren, Corrinne, Arlyn, and so forth? Not much, and so the punishment shouldn't be much either. Simple recognition that we have benefited from and even fought for the sort of power differentials between nobles and smallfolk, rich and poor, etc. and that we share some small portion of the responsibility would probably suffice.

[Yoren longshore]

You and your way with words, for my sake I'll have to argue with: "
what he said"

[Septon Arlyn]

You may be slightly correct Baelon. However do those who sit back and say that he is a victim of society get a free pass while there are those who actively are trying to change that rape culture share the same blame? By calling attention to the logical fallicies that permeate a culture that normalizes rape and finds that the culture should be changed so that consent is the number one priority of intimate relationship/ encounters? I do not think so. We can acknowledge that yes rapist's may have been taught through their life experiences that rape is a normal form of encounters. But what people like Septon Arlyn and Corrine are trying to do, by small degrees perhaps, is change the way that rape is pervieved.

Throughout the trial many of the witnesses stated that sometimes women will "
cry rape"
in order to justify their "
bad behavior"
. What this trial may accomplish is setting a president that "
hey some small folk DON'T actually want to have sex with you just because you have a penis and some spurs"
it's not a huge step forward, but it is a step in the right direction.

Albeit might have come by some personal trauma, though bad machinations of theo and co. But that does not absolve Ser benjen Frey of his guilt.

[Septon Arlyn]

A break down of how I see the crime

Did Benjen rape Crime of commission: Yes ==>
Guilty

Did Theo and Raff provoke Benjen Crime of commission: Yes ==>
Guilty

Did the others at the inn not help the woman who they heard being attacked guilty of a crime of omission: Yes ==>
guilty

Did the people who do not actively seek to punish this man have guilty of a crime of omission: Yes ==>
guilty

Do the people whom, after discovering the crime and actively trying to change the societal landscape of rape culture guilty of a crime of omission or commission : No ==>
not guilty

[Yoren longshore]

Are Theo and Raff on the "
bad"
side though? Benjen Frey had done some terrible things in the past, Theo and Raff may just have put an end to it... Who are they to choose whether it was worth it considering they got that girl raped? These are though questions, that's what I wish to show.
Are we who remain impassive guilty? How do we know that he committed a crime? Is not agitation to kill men regardless of knowing whether or not they are guilty a bigger crime?
As much as 4percent of deathrow inmates may be innocent! Who are we to decide over guilt, when we dont have proof?

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