Re: General OOC Chatter Thread

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

I sometimes get the sense you're going out of your way to look for things to take offense to, just for the fun of being offended. Is that an IC thing or an OOC thing?

[Athelstan]

There was no real haggling, Baelon just insulted him with the haggling you could have handled differently.

No one is at the table with me because IC regardless of the incident, I'm not qualified like Yoren to do so, I'm just a bastard with a strange position within the House, so I could never negotiate if I wanted to, or speak during negotiations as it is not my place. Now back at the pavilions I can scream in Yorens face my opinions lol.

[Baelon Drakeson]

Baelon's in a strange position for three reasons:

1) He's not just a bastard... he's THE bastard everyone talks about. If the generally held belief about his parentage is true, that is a powerful political connection.
Even if it is not true, because so many people believe it it has power. look at the way Lord Gorman manipulated the trial and the joust... Baelon's not just some black affiliated knight in House Marsten's service;
an embarrassing defeat would reflect on Prince Daemon even if Daemon is not Baelon's father.

2) To Lady Isobel, he's more than just a mere knight - she was encouraging him to seek Corrine's hand. That makes him a potential lord whose diplomatic and political capabilities should be tested.

3) When the first hint of these negotiations came up (way back on Day 1) Baelon was one of three members of House Marsten - two knights and Gwyn, whom Isobel dislikes. Baelon made first contact with the Coldbrooks, why would Lady Isobel put one of the other two PCs in charge of the negotiation?

1- you are not the Heir
2- he has to convince you on top of that
3- It should be a guarantee that he marries you, not good luck if you can.

That's how arranged married works, Gwyn is in the negotiation, but she didn't put herself out, Baelon did and offered someone else in a rude manner and the way he did, you were offered like an overrated desirable dish, so yes pretty insulting.

I just had an interesting thought... should Corrine die before bearing any children, Dyana would be next in line to be in charge of House Marsten...
Besides, I didn't offer anybody - I said that there were NO viable options.

Besides, arranged marriages can't be forced - if the bride or groom refuse to say the vows it doesn't matter what has been negotiated.

[Dyana Marsten]

Dyana's just as valuable as any woman of a respected and storied house... even more so when the house only has women. She's next in line after Corrine, but I hope Corrine will marry and have children and etc., so she won't be head of house.

Just because she's less willing to accept a blind arranged marriage than most women are, and no one else in the house can force her hand very well, doesn't mean she wouldn't marry at all. It's hard to haggle people and expect perfect results.

[Athelstan]

Let's see shall we:

This is you objective troops for campaign:

"
House Coldbrook has offered to send troops to support House Marsten in a campaign against the mountain clans. We in House Marsten would like to accept that offer - should the terms be agreeable, of course."

This means you have Tullisons willing also

"
First however, I do need one assurance. We have received a similar offer from House Tullison, whom I am given to understand House Coldbrook has some grievance with. Before we even begin negotiations, I must have your assurance that there would be no... mishaps.. or... accidents... between your men and those of House Tullison. Is that going to be an issue?"

He says no problemo

"
There we have it then. What then, are House Coldbrooks terms for military support in the intended action?"

So from the start its about troops for a campaign.


Daveth offer:

"
Firstly, there's a matter that's concerning us that you can help us with at practically no cost. We own Castle Grenward, but the proper recognition and paperwork was never seen to. We want this matter tidied up. Lord Tully has already agreed to handle the formal procedures for us, but also stated that we needed other houses to formally ratify our possession in order for it to stick. So, if you'd be willing to update your documents and maps to this effect, that would be a good first step.

"
After that, without wanting to sound mercenary, our key need is coin. Exactly how much help for how much coin is something we're flexible on."


"
Although, there is an alternative. We have other issues you could potentially help us with. A lack of prestige and political power in particular. And that's not a problem likely to go away any time soon. Similarly, however successful this campaign is, the clans will return at some point, so your need for military assistance will be similarly enduring, regardless of if you do or have already managed to patch things up with House Kriegar. After all, having reinforcements available who aren't also hardest pressed when you most need their help would prove invaluable."
his tone throughout is matter-of-fact."

Gwyn counter

"
Well,"
says Gwyn mischievously, "
Since your House has nothing but boys and ours has nothing but girls, I should think it wouldn't be overly difficult to arrange something."


"
And for what it's worth, I agree completely that the needs and strengths of our Houses complement one another perfectly. Marsten is an old and well-respected name, and our friendship would do a great deal to reinforce your rule. And the matter of the castle..."
she waved a hand. "
Easily accomplished. There again, our influence will move mountains to legitimize your claim to the legendary cursed castle."

Baelon

"
Lady Dyana is a potential option, and perhaps a good match for your house... if you can convince her to go along with it. I will not even attempt to do so, as I prefer to keep all of my delicate bits intact."


"
As I said, impossible... so instead let us set our eyes on a more modest proposal. Your forces, for one campaign. In return, we will ratify your possession of Castle Grenward... which I should think would greatly improve your position in marriage negotiations with other houses."

Marriage with Corrine and Gwyn is out, you still want troops to support campaign. So you offer Dyana which you yourself already make it sound like a bad option/offer with your remarks.

Daveth insulter rightfully so

"
If I can't, well, things aren't looking good. Your starting offer is a pure insult for the quality of troops we are offering you, Ser Baelon. If you value them so poorly that you're not willing to offer a single coin, we're best off ending the negotiations now, pending seeing if we can go the alliance route. We can get our recognition from plenty of other places. There is nowhere else you can get help of our quality against the clans who are killing the people you are sworn to protect."

Then you kill negotiations in my view

"
As for the offer being an insult... it has nothing to do with the quality of your troops. I'm sure they are quite well trained.
No, the error you are making is assuming that we need your troops. However, there are plenty of other options.
Tullison, Bartheld, Dulver, Bracken, even the Longshores have offered troops, though we're nowhere near that desperate."

So you don't want his troops, but you want him to help you on a campaign with the clans, but I just don't understand then lol I honestly do not. The negotiation was to help you with a campaign against the clans, you require troops or funding. You ask what he wants for troops, Gwyn counters, yo retract her offer giving him an insult instead, and then you insult him again with we never needed your troops.

Then Gwyn tries to rescue, Captain save the deal

"
I assure you, no offense is meant. Of course you must be compensated for risking the lives of your brave men. And while even one campaign would be useful to us, I would like to think we can agree on an arrangement that will be more enduring. A foundation for a long and fruitful alliance, if you will."


"
Since the matter of the marriage is, for now, tabled, and you've already outlined what forces you're willing to contribute, I suggest we move on to working out what compensation is fair."


"
Our support for your ownership of the castle is part of that deal of course, but lets not let it end there. Daveth, how long a commitment can House Coldbrook offer?"

Compensating for risking the lives of the men, you don't want since that is what Ser Baelon said, which has the authority to deny your words, so you have conflicting offers from your own side.

Gwyn is negotiation, Baelon is just in my view sabotaging it.

How long of commitment can he offer with what wealth? Apparently it's the only interest since you can draw troops from other Houses after you spit on his.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Hee hee. You are overthinking it, ser.

[Athelstan]

Maybe, but if you are negotiating for troops and then tell him we don't need them, there is not much over thinking, what are you negotiating for then, because you took a shite on the reason he was there for and insulted him while you are at it. I just don't think you see it.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

I don't think anyone sees it, except you.

Really, Baelon didn't say we don't need troops. And we didn't shite on anything. You're overreacting.

[Athelstan]

He did say:

"
No, the error you are making is assuming that we need your troops. However, there are plenty of other options.
Tullison, Bartheld, Dulver, Bracken, even the Longshores have offered troops, though we're nowhere near that desperate."

PRETTY clear to me, he said we don't need your troops.

[Jon Cobb]

PRETTY clear to me, he said we don't need your troops.

To be fair, in a negotiation, that can be read as "
we don't need your troops that much, so don't expect to get everything you're asking for"
. Certainly, his tone was a bit in-your-face and if the other party is a prickly sort, then it could well be construed as a direct insult. However, an experienced negotiator would avoid taking actual offense at such a comment, unless he feels that he's negotiating from a position of strength and doesn't need to take this shit from, as you put it - a bastard.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

Saying that there's other options isn't the same as saying we're not interested. It's a bargaining tactic. You let the seller know that he's not the only fish in the sea, so he can't jack his prices up.

[Athelstan]

Which is my point, he is not the one in need of troops for a military campaign.

[Loreia]

What the suggestion seems to be saying is that our assistance is negligible, when it's not. That's a very dangerous point to make.

[Gwyneth Drakeson]

He's just playin' some hardball.

[Dyana Marsten]

Have you guys ever haggled for anything, like, in real life?

When you're in a faire or something, and you want, say, oranges. And there's a guy with expensive oranges - good oranges, but expensive. You look around, and say "
hey, I need oranges, but I don't need yours if you'e going to keep this price. Surely you see there's more oranges over there? I could go and ask if they won't sell cheaper."


At this point, the orange-seller can reduce his prices if he wants to, or he can say he won't accept less and end the bargain. If you're not willing to pay and he isn't willing to sell, well, that's it. But if he's willing to negotiate... it's all haggling.

[Jon Cobb]

What the suggestion seems to be saying is that our assistance is negligible, when it's not. That's a very dangerous point to make.

How dangerous still depends on how easily your side takes offense, and whether or not Daveth is experienced enough to keep cool and evaluate Baelon's comment from different perspectives. Of course, if he can't, the negotiations may well fail, which is a hazard in all negotiations.

The key thing to remember is that a negotiated result between two roughly equal parties will always result in neither side getting everything they want. If one side needs the other more, then they're likely to have to pay/lose more to get what they need. So the question here becomes - who needs who the most? The Coldbrooks or the Marstens?

Also, what Dyana said.

[Athelstan]

Have you guys ever haggled for anything, like, in real life?

Yes, Political Business consultant for 7 years thank you.

When you're in a faire or something, and you want, say, oranges. And there's a guy with expensive oranges - good oranges, but expensive. You look around, and say "
hey, I need oranges, but I don't need yours if you'e going to keep this price. Surely you see there's more oranges over there? I could go and ask if they won't sell cheaper."

The problem is that you offered something, but the friend with you told you that you are wrong and what you were willing to pay first is not worth my oranges that you don't need in the first place, of course, I can give you this other thing, but I wouldn't even take this in exchange if I was you.

Yup, pretty shitty haggling deal for me, when you are the one coming to me, because you need my oranges.

At this point, the orange-seller can reduce his prices if he wants to, or he can say he won't accept less and end the bargain. If you're not willing to pay and he isn't willing to sell, well, that's it. But if he's willing to negotiate... it's all haggling.

The problem is what are you haggling for, if you already said you don't want his oranges because you can get them somewhere else, for what you offer. Then say what do you have to offer me and for how long? I'm sorry this is insulting, you just don't see the Coldbrooks side of it, from their stand point like Loreia does.

The key thing to remember is that a negotiated result between two roughly equal parties will always result in neither side getting everything they want. If one side needs the other more, then they're likely to have to pay/lose more to get what they need. So the question here becomes - who needs who the most? The Coldbrooks or the Marstens?

Problem is the Marstens are changing heir own stance, while one is canceling the other, so you can't trust a group that can't even show a comprehensive deal, when they keep changing their stand in a rude way, which brings anyone in real life away from a table of negotiation until you can set up a true offer from your side and once both offers stand, you can haggle and get a deal, not an ever mutable changing deal that in the end Coldbrook have no idea wtf.

[Dunstan Tullison]

Well I think that is up to Daveth to decide, don't you?
Baelon is supposed to be a cocky character, and dealing with such is one of many funs of roleplaying.

[Dyana Marsten]

I only mean that both sides end up paying more and receiving less than they first wished for.

Yup, pretty shitty haggling deal for me, when you are the one coming to me, because you need my oranges.

That's the point. No one needs your oranges - they need oranges. Could be yours if you make a good price. Will be someone else's if you don't.

The problem is what are you haggling for, if you already said you don't want his oranges because you can get them somewhere else, for what you offer. Then say what do you have to offer me and for how long? I'm sorry this is insulting, you just don't see the Coldbrooks side of it, from their stand point like Loreia does.

As with any haggling, what I have to offer is a little less money than you first asked for. That's called negotiating. Sometimes you'll give me slightly older oranges for the money, that's alright. Sometimes we won't come to a deal. No need to feel offended over it.

[Athelstan]

That is true, but playing blind eye OOC, is a different story.

Daveth is already insulted IC, Baelon adds salt to the wound, with his I don't need your troops, but I brought you here to negotiate for a military campaign so wtf?

I'm not offended Daveth already is feeling insulted IC lol

[Jon Cobb]

Well I think that is up to Daveth to decide, don't you?
Baelon is supposed to be a cocky character, and dealing with such is one of many funs of roleplaying.

Hey! Get your perfectly reasonable point out of this argument!

The battle lines are already drawn, and THERE WILL BE BLOOD! (It's Athelstan we're talking about, after all... )

[Dyana Marsten]

Well, unless you have a monopoly, being the only one with capable soldiers for hire, then certainly he'd understand what Baelon meant by "
I don't need your troops."
The focus here isn't on the 'I don't need troops', it's on the 'your'.

When each side makes the negotiating of troops more interesting to the other, that's when they start needing your troops.

[Athelstan]

I guess we will agree to disagree.

But if you come to me for help to a military campaign and then roll with that "
haggling"
you are not getting anything out me lol, you need them more than I do, and I can get support for what I want from other Houses as well, so I still hold the upper hand considering lord Tully already backs my claim, no biggie go find them elsewhere.

[Loreia]

Maybe there are semantics that Baelon is taking issue with?

[Reader]

Would that all this energy went in to finding good pictures for the main NPCs.

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